Major derailment @ Spuyten Duyvil

A classroom instructor/examiner could be a good place to settle into,if allowed.

There is no such thing as being "demoted" from Train Dispatcher to Locomotive Engineer. Two entirely different crafts completely. Train Dispatchers rise up through the ranks from Block Operators. In Metro-Norths case all "RTC's" are Dispatchers. Justalurker, if you are not in the RR industry just stay out of it.

Gents, let us not lose sight that, as anyone around here who 'does (did) this stuff for a living' knows, results of a 'fair and impartial hearing and investigation' (aka, depending upon which property, 'trial', 'kangaroo court') and discipline assessed therefrom ('time') is not in the public domain. Therefore, if the discipline assessed arising from this incident, including appeals, is adjudicated 'on the property', it will never be publicly disclosed.

But then 'people talk' and 'newsies' are always hungry for a story.

However, if an appeal goes 'off the property, to the 'Board' (either Division 1 of the NRAB or to a PLB), then the findings and any award are public record.

Thats ENOUGH of the speculation - i am VERY VERY close to padlocking this. Discussion of the FACTS as we KNOW them is fine - I will NOT tolerate speculation. LET THIS BE FAIR WARNING.

EM2000 wrote:There is no such thing as being "demoted" from Train Dispatcher to Locomotive Engineer. Two entirely different crafts completely. Train Dispatchers rise up through the ranks from Block Operators. In Metro-Norths case all "RTC's" are Dispatchers. Justalurker, if you are not in the RR industry just stay out of it.

Simply stated ... that is exactly what happened to the former dispatcher, now former engineer in question. The railroad he harmed by putting opposing trains on the same track at the same time gave him a second chance and a few years later he blew a signal and caused a fatal accident. Facts courtesy of the NTSB.

justalurker66 wrote:

EM2000 wrote:There is no such thing as being "demoted" from Train Dispatcher to Locomotive Engineer. Two entirely different crafts completely. Train Dispatchers rise up through the ranks from Block Operators. In Metro-Norths case all "RTC's" are Dispatchers. Justalurker, if you are not in the RR industry just stay out of it.

Simply stated ... that is exactly what happened to the former dispatcher, now former engineer in question. The railroad he harmed by putting opposing trains on the same track at the same time gave him a second chance and a few years later he blew a signal and caused a fatal accident. Facts courtesy of the NTSB.

First off what railroad are we even talking about? How about providing a link? Second of all do you even know the details of the accident? I know you probably don't understand the technical specifics, but if the story you tell is true, it would have happened in unsignaled "dark" territory. The dispatcher does not give commands to trains with the crew blindly following. There are rules in place and paperwork issued so that the crews are on the same page and act on their own discretion and rule application in the field. This is not a game where a Dispatcher plays chess. In the end the crew would be to blame as well. The Engineer is the last line of defense especially in dark territory. And again, no RR I know of has a craft structure where Train Dispatchers are "demoted" to Locomotive Engineer. In order to even be "demoted" one would have to have an Engineers license.
BTW, you also realize the majority of people who hire off the street as car cleaners or station cleaners have no aspirations to become Locomotive Engineer's right? Those that do make up a very small percentage of total non safety sensitive employees. So that ends your argument that the involved Engineer would be stealing someones path to run trains one day.

I don't have time to look it up right now but I think the incident referred to involved the Chicago South Shore & South Bend. There was an incident in 1985 where they were single-tracking due to a bridge project. I think a dispatcher involved did 'lap' two opposing trains and they hit head-on. Presumably this individual was then allowed to work as an engineer and apparently was involved in another collision.

It really doesn't seem fair to me to suggest that CSS&SB did this knowing (or should have known) the person involved was liable to cause another accident. I'm sure they didn't think that. I'm sure they thought they were being fair to everyone involved. It didn't work out too well from the way it's described (if the engineer really was at fault in the second incident) but should officials have known that in advance? Hindsight is always 20/20.

I think it's very true what someone has said. Those of us outside the industry, who are very interested in the industry, need to temper our comments and not be too sure we always interpret things the right way. Because sometimes we don't. Sometimes it's hard to know exactly what you're seeing when you're on the outside. I can easily understand how infuriating it is for professional railroaders to read comments posted by outsiders who maybe don't understand things as well as they think they do. This has caused many a battle on this forum and others.

If people would just exercise a little restraint and be a little more open-minded most of this could be avoided. Railroaders would gain more respect for fans, fans would learn more "inside stuff" and Kevin could put his feet up and put the forum on cruise control!

EM2000 wrote: In order to even be "demoted" one would have to have an Engineers license.

Could you please give more info about what you mean when you say "engineers license"?
I'm pretty sure the Federal Railroad Administration, or similar government body, has regulations about what it takes for one to be an engineer, and railroads have their own rules that can go on top of the government's rules, but this is the first I've heard it called a license.

I am pretty sure my Engineer's License doesn't let me operate a train!

Google "locomotive engineer license" and this is from what should be the first link that comes up:

Effective January 1, 1992, the Federal Railroad Administration issued extensive certification and licensing requirements for locomotive engineers. Engineers in the U.S. must be certified pursuant to the provisions of Part 240 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (49CFR Part 240). Under 49CFR Part 240 each railroad must have in place an FRA approved certification program. An individual railroad's certification program must meet minimum federal safety requirements for the eligibility, training, testing, certification and monitoring of its locomotive engineers. In this regard, certification eligibility is based on:

• * Prior safety conduct as a railroad employee and motor vehicle operator
  * Compliance with substance abuse disorder and alcohol/drug regulations
  * Vision and hearing acuity standards
  * Knowledge testing of operating rules and scheduled retesting
  * Performance skills testing/train handling

It's from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers website That seems like a pretty decent source!

To follow up on this, a licensed locomotive engineer carries an actual card with him/her, much like a vehicle drivers license.

This card contains all the pertinent info for his/her qualifications.

Often you'll hear a suspended/fired engineer refer to "having my card pulled", meaning the license has been revoked.

(sometimes "ticket" or "certificate" will be substituted for "card")

Oddly, there don't seem to be any pictures of an actual engineer's card on Google ...

Further information regarding an engineers certification:

It's issued by the carrier and is a card that states the individual meets or exceeds the necessary federal regulations set forth. It also my be carried when ever running.

There is no generic license that one can look up on line.

There are a number of decertifiable offenses that can cause the certification to get pulled, no questions asked.

Railroad conductors also have a similar certification.

Thank you ladies and Germans. As I said, this is the first I heard it called a license, or even that it was an item the engineer had to carry with them.

Patrick Boylan wrote:Thank you ladies and Germans. As I said, this is the first I heard it called a license, or even that it was an item the engineer had to carry with them.

And fully effective about a year or so ago, the FRA extended a similar requirement to conductors. I have the railroad-issued conductor's document which I must carry when on-duty in that craft for our all-volunteer operated passenger trains on the BR&W.

Engineer licensing derives from the incident with Ricky Gates. Fast fast foward to 2008 conductor licensing derives more or less from the Metrolink head on crash in Chatsworth.