Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

RearOfSignal wrote:Heard an interesting rumor today... MNR might look to run shoppers specials New Haven to NYP next holiday season. The football trains seem to be a technical success, perhaps MNR will look to expend this service on a limited basis to see how the general public responds not just Jets and Giants fans.

Not sure if that's the smartest / most fiscally-responsible idea. The present run from NHV-GCT is shorter and faster than NHV-NYP. What would running to NYP for a shopper's special gain you? The train would still terminate in the city, just 8 blocks further south. Sure, it'd be closer to Macy's, but that's about it. GCT is more in the heart of the city than NYP.

lirr42 wrote:Just an idea—how many Shoreliners does Metro-North have lying around on a day-to-day basis? Would it be enough for them to start up a basic service like that with their own cars and a borrowed/purchased/leased/stolen ALP-46? (and are they even compatible?). Maybe they could buy/lease/steal a couple of those ALP-44's gathering dust doing nothing in Port Morris—at least until the M8 third rail thing gets sorted out.

There's other reasons why I don't think this will happen, but I recall Cruiser writing a while back that Metro-North did approach NJ Transit about leasing or acquiring ALP-44 locomotives. For whatever reason, and Cruiser didn't say why, NJ Transit did not want to do it.

MNCR or CDOT dit NOT want to Lease ALP 44's and never will. the Locomotives need million $$$ overhauls and are basicly heading for scrapper.

Knew it!

Dutch you replied to Cruiser the exact same way and he told you that you were mistaken.

Believe the NJT ALP-44's at Port Morris are stored UNSERVICABLE,meaning major shop work and time,
along with no longer avaible KEY parts/processes that would allow the ALP-44's to be servicable.
They were put away "wet" and wore out,missing parts from what I read in the NJT fourm
Thanks to Sandy's handiwork,NJT is still trying to get the rest of their fleet back as well as MMC.
Nice dream however.

Just to be clear from my end.

The comment I referred to about Metro-North's interest was from a couple years ago, before the ALP-44s were being taken out of service or when they were starting to be taken out of service. This was not recent.

While I don't take the "shoppers specials to NYP" rumor seriously, it did raise the question in my mind:

Does Metro-North own any trains (or equipment to make up a train) that could run into NYP even if M-N wanted to?

I'm guessing that diesels aren't allowed in NYP (at least, not with the engine on), and according to posts on this forum, M-N electrics can't handle 25 Hz catenary. Also, M-N 3rd rail shoes aren't compatible with NYP 3rd rail.

amm in ny wrote:While I don't take the "shoppers specials to NYP" rumor seriously, it did raise the question in my mind:

Does Metro-North own any trains (or equipment to make up a train) that could run into NYP even if M-N wanted to?

I'm guessing that diesels aren't allowed in NYP (at least, not with the engine on), and according to posts on this forum, M-N electrics can't handle 25 Hz catenary. Also, M-N 3rd rail shoes aren't compatible with NYP 3rd rail.

Only equipment that could be capable would be M8's as they have a shoe mechanism which allows for both types of 3rd rail operation. However, LIRR style 3rd rail would have to be extended up to the voltage change at either HAROLD or GATE (not sure which). Until that happens any MNRR service to NYP other than Meadowlands NJT equipment is a pipe dream.

The M-2's in as built condition could run under PRR 25 hz wire into NY Penn,but had to be "barefooted"(no 3rd rail shoes)
to clear LIRR 3rd rail from Harold thru Penn and the North river tunnels.
As I understand it now,after the conversion to 12.5 kv,60hz on the New Haven Line, the M-2's had a
"mini" life extension overhaul,most if not all cars had swapped the MG set for a static inverter for
"Hotel"(lights) and control power. that swap out killed any chance of running under 25 hz wire.

The LIRR 3rd rail has to be extended past CP Gate on the Hellgate route,the Phase Break between 60/25 hz is
near CP Gate. Believe the Phase Break between the New Haven's and PRR's electrical Networks was in the same area
when everything was 11kv 25hz

The LIRR third rail is not even close to CP Gate it finishes one trainlenght from Harold.
Any MNCR operations would require funding for third rail from Harold to Gate and a Substation to feed that third rail.

.......or you can just get up to 90mph and coast from the phase brake to the start of the third rail.

(yes, I know that's a stupid idea that would never work)

shadyjay wrote:

RearOfSignal wrote:Heard an interesting rumor today... MNR might look to run shoppers specials New Haven to NYP next holiday season. The football trains seem to be a technical success, perhaps MNR will look to expend this service on a limited basis to see how the general public responds not just Jets and Giants fans.

Not sure if that's the smartest / most fiscally-responsible idea. The present run from NHV-GCT is shorter and faster than NHV-NYP. What would running to NYP for a shopper's special gain you? The train would still terminate in the city, just 8 blocks further south. Sure, it'd be closer to Macy's, but that's about it. GCT is more in the heart of the city than NYP.

No one said the plan would be fiscally responsible or sensible. That being said, it's very likely that the railroad would go through with it!

RearOfSignal wrote:Heard an interesting rumor today... MNR might look to run shoppers specials New Haven to NYP next holiday season...

I appreciate ROS taking the time to post this information or rumor whatever you want to call it. I'm not at all surprised that MNR would think about this. Several years ago when they unveiled the Football Specials they said publicly it was a "way to get our feet wet'" running inter-line services and that we should "expect to see more of this."

As for ridership, there are many more shopping destinations in the Herald Square area besides Macy's. And Macy's Herald Square is on a whole different playing field compared with the Macy's in the suburbs. It has a huge amount of merchandise compared to what you see in their suburban stores.

To those speaking about the rumors of MNR running Shopper's Specials into Penn, let us just wait and see what happens if and when the M-8s get their testing on the Hell Gate Line, and see who they will hold up on territory outside of MNR territory. Plus the work on extending the LIRR overrunning third rail has not even remotely begun yet. Right now they can only run as far as the dead section west (south) of the Hell Gate approach, then they are dead in the water once they should pass that point. Right now there has been no word of any testing expected there anytime soon.

Of course, to be continued......and subject to change!!

Depending on the schedule they might come up with, it's possible they could use the same equipment they use for the football trains isn't it?