Decision made to replace the Arrows

Fan Railer wrote:According to the January edition of Railway Age, there is still a hopeful procurement of 228 EMUs listed under NJT in the 5 year outlook for 2013-2017. In addition, there is also a 53 car order of DMUs listed in the same section. Is there any validity to this prediction, or is it just left over numbers from the previous year that haven't been edited out yet?
So in short, do the Arrow IVs still have a chance, as the article claims, or are they just dead and we should forget about them?

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/sb/ra0112/#/52

Mod note: Merged with older thread Decision made to replace Arrows. I'll clean it up a bit as well.

cnj1524 wrote:The Arrow's will be rebuilt again as NJ doesnt have money to buy more new equipment,supposed to start in 4th quarter of
this year from what I read/told

Spruced up, yes, cleaned up yes. A rebuild is not in their future.... at least not at this point.

25Hz wrote:Only i think like 40 of the arrows are to be fixed up a bit, not rebuilt. Read: made a bit more reliable for their age. Most of these will be used (just guessing) wherever they are needed once all the MLV's & ALP-45dp's are delivered. I don't know what the breakdown of pairs & singles are, but i'm guessing the majority will be singles based on how many comets will be freed up from NEC service as MLV are delivered. Would be nice if cruiser could come on by and tell me i'm wrong & fill us in w/ the scoop.

It is 170 cars "overhauled" (fixed up enough to keep going for five more years) between 2011 and 2013.

http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.ph ... =Arrow+III

How seriously is NJT currently about getting new MU's to replace the Arrows?

morris&essex4ever wrote:How seriously is NJT currently about getting new MU's to replace the Arrows?

Based on my last few rides & all the service advisories lately, pretty damn seriously I'd hope. They are really starting to not do well.

morris&essex4ever wrote:How serious(ly) is NJT currently about getting new MUs to replace the Arrows?

With 100 new MLVs on the way, how serious would you think?

amtrakowitz wrote:

morris&essex4ever wrote:How serious(ly) is NJT currently about getting new MUs to replace the Arrows?

With 100 new MLVs on the way, how serious would you think?

That NJT is buying new MUs or that NJT is going to do to the Princeton Branch and the Gladstone Branch what SEPTA did to the Newtown Line?

Think about the recent push to BRT-ize the Princeton Branch. Sound like an attempt to evade buying more EMUs?

SEPTA's allowing the Newtown Branch to be rail-trailed. Consider that they also abandoned from Elwyn to West Chester even though that was electrified. Those decisions weren't EMU-based, though.

25Hz wrote:

morris&essex4ever wrote:How seriously is NJT currently about getting new MU's to replace the Arrows?

Based on my last few rides & all the service advisories lately, pretty damn seriously I'd hope. They are really starting to not do well.

The hoboken side arrows are doing fine, havent seen or heard of one breaking yet (anyone who has heard or seen otherwise please let me know) and you know how down here if one breaks on too short a train the whole set is done, actually ive seen two 46s crap out.. 4616 and 4623, 4623 once restarted was able to keep pushing its train but 4616 was totally gone. Tied up the tracks real pretty in summit for a good bit.

beanbag wrote:

25Hz wrote:

morris&essex4ever wrote:How seriously is NJT currently about getting new MU's to replace the Arrows?

Based on my last few rides & all the service advisories lately, pretty damn seriously I'd hope. They are really starting to not do well.

The hoboken side arrows are doing fine, havent seen or heard of one breaking yet (anyone who has heard or seen otherwise please let me know) and you know how down here if one breaks on too short a train the whole set is done, actually ive seen two 46s crap out.. 4616 and 4623, 4623 once restarted was able to keep pushing its train but 4616 was totally gone. Tied up the tracks real pretty in summit for a good bit.

Oh no?? better think again.... This message from a Lackawanna coalition member emailed to me!

The aging Arrow fleet may be becoming a serious issue,
as NJT refuses to follow the lead of other
Northeast operating agencies and invest in new MU stock.

On Wednesday (Feb 1), train 418 Gladstone-Hoboken (due HOB 11:38 am)
I was riding the first car. After Broad Street I overheard the engineer
calling the dispatcher; he reported a list of mechanical woes, and I was
able to catch the following: "Just east of the drawbridge at Broad
Street we bottomed out. Also, I can't get up to track speed; and (something
about brake dust)." Not sure what "bottomed out" means, but I
imagine he meant the suspension; I didn't notice anything unusual myself.

On Thursday (Feb 2), train 430 (Gladstone-HOB, leaves Gladstone 3:38 pm)
was annulled, account equipment problems. I rode the following train,
432, which was picking up customers stranded in the cold for an hour.
I heard a crew member tell a passenger that the problem with 430 was brakes.
Perhaps the same set? (BTW 432 has been observed several times using a diesel push-pull
set instead of Arrows, the most recently being Monday Jan. 30. This
may be due to catenary work, not equipment availability however.)

In general, the passenger experience on Arrow equipment is deteriorating.
The ride is becoming noisy, plagued by squeaks and rattles. Many seats
are broken.

Ken S. wrote:

amtrakowitz wrote:

morris&essex4ever wrote:How serious(ly) is NJT currently about getting new MUs to replace the Arrows?

With 100 new MLVs on the way, how serious would you think?

That NJT is buying new MUs or that NJT is going to do to the Gladstone Branch what SEPTA did to the Newtown Line?

You don't really seriously believe that do you???

amtrakowitz wrote:Think about the recent push to BRT-ize the Princeton Branch. Sound like an attempt to evade buying more EMUs?

SEPTA's allowing the Newtown Branch to be rail-trailed. Consider that they also abandoned from Elwyn to West Chester even though that was electrified. Those decisions weren't EMU-based, though.

The BRT wasn't received well by the residents , LRT or Streetcar is being pushed now last i heard....and a very popular idea. I doubt the Gladstone line would be abandoned , it services a wealthy part of NJ unlike the Boonton Branch which served a middle and lower class part of NJ , so it was easy to kill.

I hear ya blockline, i guess i havent been around the arrows enough, i mean they are pushing 35 years old so its understandable, we need to get rid of them. Yes you are correct the bottoming out has to do with the suspension, like a full compression up to the stops, when they bottom out theyre nasty. 1342 in particular will toss your head with the suspension rebound,i hate riding in that one. Always leave with a headache. I guess im going to put more effort into avoiding the gladstone trains!

blockline4180 wrote:

beanbag wrote:

25Hz wrote:

morris&essex4ever wrote:How seriously is NJT currently about getting new MU's to replace the Arrows?

Based on my last few rides & all the service advisories lately, pretty damn seriously I'd hope. They are really starting to not do well.

The hoboken side arrows are doing fine, havent seen or heard of one breaking yet (anyone who has heard or seen otherwise please let me know) and you know how down here if one breaks on too short a train the whole set is done, actually ive seen two 46s crap out.. 4616 and 4623, 4623 once restarted was able to keep pushing its train but 4616 was totally gone. Tied up the tracks real pretty in summit for a good bit.

Oh no?? better think again.... This message from a Lackawanna coalition member emailed to me!

The aging Arrow fleet may be becoming a serious issue,
as NJT refuses to follow the lead of other
Northeast operating agencies and invest in new MU stock.

On Wednesday (Feb 1), train 418 Gladstone-Hoboken (due HOB 11:38 am)
I was riding the first car. After Broad Street I overheard the engineer
calling the dispatcher; he reported a list of mechanical woes, and I was
able to catch the following: "Just east of the drawbridge at Broad
Street we bottomed out. Also, I can't get up to track speed; and (something
about brake dust)." Not sure what "bottomed out" means, but I
imagine he meant the suspension; I didn't notice anything unusual myself.

On Thursday (Feb 2), train 430 (Gladstone-HOB, leaves Gladstone 3:38 pm)
was annulled, account equipment problems. I rode the following train,
432, which was picking up customers stranded in the cold for an hour.
I heard a crew member tell a passenger that the problem with 430 was brakes.
Perhaps the same set? (BTW 432 has been observed several times using a diesel push-pull
set instead of Arrows, the most recently being Monday Jan. 30. This
may be due to catenary work, not equipment availability however.)

In general, the passenger experience on Arrow equipment is deteriorating.
The ride is becoming noisy, plagued by squeaks and rattles. Many seats
are broken.

Lets think about this - when there are only a few dozen working over on the Hoboken side - I don't remember the exact number, but I wanna say inbetween 30 and 40? But if one MU has a problem, and its "fixed" and it happens again, its going to look much worse than on the Newark side where the bad pair can be buried and just along for a ride til it can be fixed. Again, especially when a train consists of only a single and a pair or whatever.

Sometimes when problems and failures happen, they might think they fixed it, but then it happens again, it wasn't what they first thought it was. Troubleshooting trains are really no different than trying to troubleshoot problems with your own car. You don't always get it right the first time.

Anyway, the Lackawanna Coalition making something a bigger deal than it is? NOoooooooooooo I don't believe it. This might be the first time Ive seen something come from that organization that didn't have a quote from their "railroading expert"

Yes, the MUs are tired, but they aren't total rolling basketcases like whats being made out to be. When you ride by the MMC, what model cars do you see the most out there? They are Stainless Steel, but they have smooth sides...........

Also, they are about 35 years old, but remember, propulsion wise they were TOTALLY rebuilt in 1992-3-4. Not that up to 20 years of service isn't admirable, but they aren't 35 years old without any work...they are 20 years old without any major work.

Nexis4Jersey wrote:

amtrakowitz wrote:Think about the recent push to BRT-ize the Princeton Branch. Sound like an attempt to evade buying more EMUs?

SEPTA's allowing the Newtown Branch to be rail-trailed. Consider that they also abandoned from Elwyn to West Chester even though that was electrified. Those decisions weren't EMU-based, though.

The BRT wasn't received well by the residents , LRT or Streetcar is being pushed now last i heard....and a very popular idea. I doubt the Gladstone line would be abandoned , it services a wealthy part of NJ unlike the Boonton Branch which served a middle and lower class part of NJ , so it was easy to kill.

LRV's working the Princeton Branch and Downtown Princeton would certainly be an upgrade.
Eventhough there haven't been thru-trains to Princeton in many years; it would just be sad to see interoperability with the rest of the system lost for good, but its better than busses.