Will PATCO ever expand east to Atlantic City?

I have never heard of any serious proposals to extend PATCO and seeing that the PATCO line parallels NJ Atlantic City line I dont know the history of why the line was built in the first place. Last I rode it it was using cars from 1960 something..I know about the bridge train but beyond that never seemed to make sence..

sextant wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 8:54 pm I have never heard of any serious proposals to extend PATCO and seeing that the PATCO line parallels NJ Atlantic City line I dont know the history of why the line was built in the first place. Last I rode it it was using cars from 1960 something..I know about the bridge train but beyond that never seemed to make sense [sence]..

A bit of Googling shows that the line was designed as a replacement for and extension of the former Bridge Line that ran from Camden to Philly, where it connected to the BSL. Ridership on the Bridge Line was low because, among other things, it didn't go beyond Camden.

PATCO incorporated part of the former PRR-RDG Seashore Line, thus restoring access beyond Camden. There's a transfer point at Lindenwold that allows passengers to continue eastward via the NJT Atlantic City Line as you noted. However service didn't start until 1969 so I'm not sure what ca.-1960 equipment you might be referring to.

As things stand now there's much more interest in extending the line westward rather than going beyond Lindenwold. The idea of continuing west was first brought up as early as the mid-1970s as part of a much more ambitious plan to connect PATCO with the NHSL in Upper Darby. That idea fell victim to the usual suspects that have stymied many projects in this area: cost, severed ROWs, and lack of political will. Since then increased growth in the University City area has given new impetus to proposals to build as far as either 34th St. or 40th St. Aside from the benefits of better-serving the city's "eds and meds" district, such an extension would offer better connections to several SEPTA routes including three Regional Rail lines and the Subway-Surface system.

Jeff K., unless you know something that I don't, the only place I've seen anything about a proposed expansion is in the Philadelphia 2035 document. There isn't any movement within DRPA to even embrace this idea, let alone actively support it.

With regards to expansion east to Atlantic City, former PATCO Assistant General Manager Bill Vigrass developed a plan in the early eighties. His idea included converting an older compatible subway car into a diesel generator trailer car that would be inserted into an existing PATCO trainset and provide electricity while the rail vehicles were off the 3rd rail. Projected headways were 30 minutes, IIRC. The plan failed from resistance to allowing diesel fuel in PATCO tunnels due to safety considerations and institutional inertia at DRPA. Recent advancements in Battery Electric Multiple Unit trainset technology from European railcar manufacturers make the diesel fuel issue moot. The institutional inertia at DRPA remains.

Will PATCO ever expand east to Atlantic City? In a word, no. Bill Vigress was the only one with the foresight to try to move PATCO forward. Not only didn't the big shots of the DRPA want to run it, but they did everything possible to try to prevent NJT and AMTRAK from running on "their track".

Is there even a demand for patco to run east?
I suspect no.
Now, another western route, yes, as it'd be faster then the Delair bridge.

Bill R. wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:15 pm Jeff K., unless you know something that I don't, the only place I've seen anything about a proposed expansion is in the Philadelphia 2035 document. There isn't any movement within DRPA to even embrace this idea, let alone actively support it.

The proposal was part of a mid-1970s "blue sky" document from the DVRPC. It came out at the height (depth?) of the gas crisis and envisioned a major expansion of rail service throughout the region by (drum roll, please) the 2020s.

The extension of the P&W was just one of a number of ideas including things we're still debating e.g. building subway/el extensions that have been batted around since before the war ... the Great War, that is.

The idea of a P&W connection was based on several factors:

> PATCO at the time was operationally compatible with the P&W except perhaps for platform clearances. Of course the P&W couldn't handle longer trains but the assumption was the connecting service would use shorter consists similar its long-term operations.

> At that time the former PRR Cardington Branch was still mostly intact which would have allowed for a connection at Upper Darby.

> Perhaps the backs of the planners' minds held memories of the P&W founders' dream (!!) to extend service down Chestnut or Walnut Street to the Delaware River. While that plan was intended to compete with the MFSE, the PATCO extension would complement it.

The plans were hugely ambitious and assumed that (a) gas prices would continue to soar and (b) governments would respond by reforming land use and transit, neither of which happened as projected.

I kept the document for many years, mostly to see how much of it wouldn't happen due to regional inertia / lack of $$$ / "nothing is ever done for the first time" and so on. Unfortunately it disappeared during a later move and I can't find an online copy after an admittedly cursory search. If anyone else has a copy I'd be VERY interested in seeing it again.

PATCO aka "The Bridge Train" has seemed to me to be one of a half dozen "Orphan" oddball transit operations in the United States. Mattapan line in Boston uses old PCC cars and does not connect to the rest of the system but is an extension of the Orange Line, The Skokie Swift goes from third rail to Overhead wire in Chicago and can only use special cars for that purpose. Dallas had the Tandy Subway and is going to make another mistake for a people mover in downtown Dallas-https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dalla ... r/2835371/ .... The Seattle Monorail would be a another one. Orphan Transit operations are different design and use unique vehicles and guidance systems that more likely then not the original contractor that made the system won't be around 20 years from now and spare parts will be hard to find. The PATCO cars use Standard Gauge rather than Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge and are incompatible with the rest of the system . and yes they were built in 1969 using statte of the art tech at the time which is now way out of date.

https://www.nj.com/opinion/2019/02/patc ... orial.html
here is a spiffy article from 2019

sextant wrote:, The Skokie Swift goes from third rail to Overhead wire in Chicago and can only use special cars for that purpose.

The overhead wire has been gone for 18 years, and is now fully equipped with third rail. Can't really blame CTA for going with the orphan concept between 1964 and 2004 - they had an opportunity to quickly add 4.5 miles of track with the CMNSR's bankruptcy and shutdown. Once the rail is gone, restoring service is 100x more difficult.

Dallas had the Tandy Subway and is going to make another mistake for a people mover in downtown Dallas ....

Tandy was in Fort Worth... not Dallas. It served its role as a remote parking shuttle and wasn't ever intended to be more than that.

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sextant wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:53 pm PATCO aka "The Bridge Train" has seemed to me to be one of a half dozen "Orphan" oddball transit operations in the United States. Mattapan line in Boston uses old PCC cars and does not connect to the rest of the system but is an extension of the Orange Line, The Skokie Swift goes from third rail to Overhead wire in Chicago and can only use special cars for that purpose. Dallas had the Tandy Subway and is going to make another mistake for a people mover in downtown Dallas-https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/dalla ... r/2835371/ .... The Seattle Monorail would be a another one. Orphan Transit operations are different design and use unique vehicles and guidance systems that more likely then not the original contractor that made the system won't be around 20 years from now and spare parts will be hard to find. The PATCO cars use Standard Gauge rather than Pennsylvania Trolley Gauge and are incompatible with the rest of the system . and yes they were built in 1969 using statte of the art tech at the time which is now way out of date.

Also, E bart

As to some points raised above:
The Broad St. Subway was built as standard gauge, as was the Bridge connection to Camden, so standard gauge for PATCO fit right in.
Concerning the Skokie Swift, as eolesen pointed out, the track (and the wire) were what was there, so that's what CTA used while the opportunity existed; in addition, there was some Federal money available at the time for innovative projects that could be completed within a deadline, and CTA seized that opportunity as well. (This from extensive coverage in various issues of First & Fastest.)
Just for the record, the Mattapan line is an extension of the Red Line and is itself a conversion of a former New Haven branch. And I have to say that trolleys seem perfectly suited to that particular operation.