Why not connect commuter agencies end to end?

Alright so I see all these commuter rail topics and these Amtrak is too expensive, slow, outdated, etc., etc. So my question is, with the opportunity for big changes seemingly better now than ever why isn't the northeast restructuring passenger rail in the region. It seems almost too easy in some places. Like the mbta could hook up with the sle and that'll hook up with mnrr, bam Boston to NYC. Then get something going from Worcester out to Springfield, that links everyone up inland. Get the cape going again, get a train to go over to Attleboro to get ppl off the nec. I mean it makes sense to a simple teen like myself.

It’s much easier said than done. Millions and millions of dollars are needed to rehab a line for passenger service. Years of studies, dealing with the NIMBY's, track upgrades, additional equipment the list goes on. Everything that you mentioned has the possibility but where's the money going to come from? It's going to come out of the wallets of the tax payers. Right now the economy is in a whole and there's just not enough money to go around. Projects like these won't come around for years to come if ever.

shane781-
What you've proposed is dangerous, so I must state this as forcefully as possible: STOP MAKING SENSE!
Why is what you propose dangerous? Quite simply, it requires a bunch of people in various organizations and endeavors to fundamentally rethink the way they do things. If they do engage in a fundamental rethinking, their heads may hurt. They may also feel that they would have to change practices or give up real or perceived advantages. If youngsters have trouble sharing toy trains, why should oldsters not have trouble sharing real trains, real ROW, real time?
It can be done, it should be done, it would be done, but only if it can be packaged in such a way that all involved feel they will benefit, short- and long-term.
(Mods: What follows is NOT deliberate Guilford-bashing, but -- hopefully -- an illustrative example.)
Think how long from concept to execution the re-establishment of Boston-Portland passenger service took. Think how long it has taken and will yet take to extend service north of Portland. For some people in control, the ultimate form of their control is the same as a two-year-old's: "No!"
That model of capitalism, the Pennsylvania Railroad sought and accepted WPA funding (The "Stimulus Package" of more than seven decades ago) to extend electrification from Manhattan Transfer to Washington and Harrisburg, an unarguably beneficial project. Now would be the time to do what you propose, but the controllers now, as opposed to then, are not in a giving or receiving vein.
shane781, please find yourself, however many years from now, in the position of being a controller so you can say, "Yes!"

shane781 wrote:I mean it makes sense to a simple teen like myself.

I thought it made sense when I was your age too... why not connect each agency end to end? Well, there's no immediate need, and there's no money in the budget for these kinds of extensions at the moment. The only people who notice these lack of connections are the railfans. At the end of the day, is there any reason to extend MBTA from Providence to New London? What if CDOT opens their commuter line from New Haven to Hartford to Springfield, will MBTA be compelled to extend to Springfield? Who would be responsible for paying for what? Who would extend their services? Who would pay for new stations? Etc. etc...

Otto Vondrak wrote:

shane781 wrote:I mean it makes sense to a simple teen like myself.

I thought it made sense when I was your age too... why not connect each agency end to end? Well, there's no immediate need, and there's no money in the budget for these kinds of extensions at the moment. The only people who notice these lack of connections are the railfans. At the end of the day, is there any reason to extend MBTA from Providence to New London? What if CDOT opens their commuter line from New Haven to Hartford to Springfield, will MBTA be compelled to extend to Springfield? Who would be responsible for paying for what? Who would extend their services? Who would pay for new stations? Etc. etc...

Not to mention the fact that commuter equipment is not designed for long-distance service. Few people outside the railfan community would be that thrilled with the idea of spending 5+ hours (since this equipment sure isn't hitting 125mph!) sitting scrunched up in the red-and-blue plastic seats of an MNRR M-2 or Shoreliner on a train with no food service and minimal restroom accomodations.

The other issue is that nobody wants to give up local control, and this includes the average Joe Taxpayer. Let's say that Joe lives in Massachusetts. Joe, and folks like him, would perceive two things: 1) that their tax dollars are being used to support commuter trains in New York; and 2) that some bureaucrat in New York is making decisions for the people of Massachusetts. They would also think "I only go to New York once or twice a year; why should I be subsidizing their commuter system?" And the folks from New York would be thinking the same thing: "Why should I subsidize the MBTA if I never go to MA?" This is the exact same argument we already get from people who don't use trains at all: "I don't use trains; why should I pay for them?" It's a stupid argument, but to them it's perfectly valid and makes sense. I mean, I don't use airplanes or ferries, but I do pay for them with my taxes... and that's OK with me, because I understand that it's necessary. Most people, however, don't understand this... especially when it comes to trains, apparently.

And the folks who are currently running the various individual commuter systems would come up with all sorts of reasons for why consolidation isn't possible, because obviously these folks don't want to lose their jobs.

I don't know what "New York" has to do with anything since Shore Line East services are managed by CDOT, as are Metro-North services in Connecticut.

-otto-

MNCR services in Connecticut are still managed by Metro North, the bill however is paid by CDOT.

Otto Vondrak wrote:I don't know what "New York" has to do with anything since Shore Line East services are managed by CDOT, as are Metro-North services in Connecticut.

I was just using that as a hypothetical example of the perception that one region would be controlling things in another region, if several commuter rail systems were consolidated. I could have used Florida or California; it was just a hypothetical to illustrate the point about nobody wanting to give up local control.

Well let's say that instead of consolidating all these roads you just lengthened them to connect to each other a good example would be say the T and SLE meeting somewhere in rhode island. Just do a cross platform transfer. I think big changes are afoot in the region, are current rail system hasn't changed in oh I'd say bare minimum 25 years. Major changes must be coming, right? Also for this main mbta sle connection the tracks are already in place and ready to go, they're called the NEC

Shore Line East, from what I understand, is still strictly commuter rail - inbound trips in the morning, outbound trips in the afternoon, and maybe one against the flow. Older systems like the MBTA, Metro-North, and SEPTA also provide what could be termed 'regional rail', providing enough trips that, say, a city resident could visit his suburban friend for a day.

If you've studied interurbans you'll know how those provided multiple daily trips to areas that had been served by maybe a single mixed steam train per day. This allowed farmers and small-town residents to get to the adjacent small town easily. Then good roads came along, people found automobiles more convenient, and most interurbans either disappeared or evolved into Greyhound and other intercity buses. Finally deregulation let Greyhound et al. stop serving the small towns, and the only option now is either driving or, if you're lucky, taking a once-a-day Amtrak train or a commuter train or local bus that's probably scheduled around commuters. The exception is the above examples of older commuter rail systems.

So maybe what's needed is a return of the interurban. In New England, most of these were simply built along the roadside, which would be impossible today. So the best corridors available are the old steam railroads, and we might as well provide interurban service with existing commuter rail infrastructure. Just make service frequent enough and... uh... will people really give up driving? Yeah...

Sounds like such a system would be competitive to Amtrak and would create two seperate Government funded passenger rail services. I'm not exactly sure that is a good idea as we only need one Amtrak.

shane781 wrote:Well let's say that instead of consolidating all these roads you just lengthened them to connect to each other a good example would be say the T and SLE meeting somewhere in rhode island. Just do a cross platform transfer.

We're not saying its physically impossible, we're saying there's a lot of factors that prohibit it right now including:

1) need for extended service

2) lack of a budget

3) inter-agency and inter-state cooperation

-=otto-

CN9634 wrote:Sounds like such a system would be competitive to Amtrak and would create two seperate Government funded passenger rail services. I'm not exactly sure that is a good idea as we only need one Amtrak.

Kind of like local buses and commuter rail compete, eh? If anything it would let Amtrak skip some of the minor stops.

NE2 wrote:

CN9634 wrote:Sounds like such a system would be competitive to Amtrak and would create two seperate Government funded passenger rail services. I'm not exactly sure that is a good idea as we only need one Amtrak.

Kind of like local buses and commuter rail compete, eh? If anything it would let Amtrak skip some of the minor stops.

Slightly off-topic, but am I right in thinking that the original enabling legislation for Amtrak limited them to trips of >150 miles? Always understood that was what finally killed the remaining summer-only NY-Pittsfield service over the ex-NH Berkshire line, amongst other things.

Also, if Amtrak is limited to runs of greater than 150 miles, does that in turn mean that railroads other than Amtrak are prohibited from operating regular runs of >150 miles?