When will passenger RRs have incidents like United/American?

n2cbo wrote:

SemperFidelis wrote: Many, many of NJ Transit's conductors do need a lesson or two on how to address a customer properly, though.

The KEY word here is CUSTOMER!! Many RR employees don't really look at passengers as CUSTOMERS, and that the railroad is providing a SERVICE to them. I guess since there is NO competition, i.e. only one railroad (either Amtrak or a commuter railroad) that has service to the area, many RR employees have the attitude that "we're the only game in town", so it's OUR way or NO way...

Being a customer does not entitle you to a level of service.

For example, if I am a customer of a vending machine, I will receive no small talk or polite wishes from the owner. If my candy jams up, I will receive no value for my $1. I don't expect anybody calls the 800 number and asks for their dollar back.

Likewise, an airplane or a train is public transit. Many people ride here, it's not 1-on-1 business. Further, there are hefty amounts of operational and safety protocol which must be followed in order to ensure everybody arrives safely and the vehicle does not harm any bystanders while en route. When a conductor or flight crew member tells you to do something, YOU DO NOT QUESTION IT PERIOD FULL STOP OR YOU WILL BE REMOVED AND PROSECUTED.

Now, many people might maintain that certain recent airline passengers were "not really" a safety threat. That doesn't matter. The only people legally entitled to make that decision are the trained crew. Passengers are not railroaders or flight crew and have no training to back up their judgments, and thus are not entitled to second guess decisions made by employees. Once we go down that road of passengers justifying their dissent, where do we draw the line? Everybody has different subjective standards on what they feel is right and wrong, which means we have a madhouse.

Now, that doesn't mean one can't report an employee for doing something improper. If one has a complaint, take down the name, date, time, flight/train number, and file a complaint. It really does work. But going self-vigilante on a plane or train against a crew member is a great way to wind up in jail.

Tadman, the point that I was trying to make was about the ATTITUDE of SOME RR employees. Some (and this is a minority of them, but a significant minority) RR employees have the attitude that comes across as "This would be a great job if it weren't for all those darned passengers", forgetting that if it weren't for the passengers there wouldn't be a job.

When I worked for Amtrak back in the 1970's (while I was in college) I was a traveling electrician. I always did my darndest to make sure that I treated the passengers that I had contact with (and this was mostly when something in the car was malfunctioning, and that happened quite often when there was non-HEP equipment in the consist) like my job depended on them being satisfied customers. Many of my colleagues had the attitude that all the ticket bought the passenger was transportation from point A to point B, and it didn't matter if the HVAC or lights stopped working.

Most RR personnel I have encountered since then have a good attitude, but there still are (In My Humble Opinion) too many that treat the passenger like an extra burden rather than as a customer.

Well, unfortunately someone seems to have been reading our thread: Amtrak shooting incident, Naperville, IL

Who made the first aggressive move?

Problems between passengers are less likely to happen on trains because people can get up and move around at almost any time to avoid confrontation.

But problems between passengers and crew are more likely to happen on trains compared with airplanes because fares are collected on board. If a "secret shopper" wrote up a conductor for not using tactics that have been known to result in confrontations then the railroad's training and methods are faulty.

While the responsibility of the transportation company consists of getting someone from point A to point B, I contend that the company has the responsibility of doing it safely, with neither equipment nor other passengers creating a hazard. My personal opinion is that an unheated car would not be unacceptable (it is the passenger's responsibility to bring appropriate clothing) but too high a temperature would be unacceptable.

Even if someone does manage to overbook a train. (never seen it) worst case they get put in the lounge car or something for their trip. They maybe get a but grumpy or something but they still get where they are going.

Most of the long distance crews on Amtrak are exceedingly nice. The only time I have seen people put off (to the cops in the middle of FREAKIN no where) is overly drunk, or someone was messing with other passengers.

Seen some dude "released" to the cops in the middle of freakin New Mexico for getting drunk and unruly. I am sure the jail stay was an eye opener.

Alcochaser wrote:Even if someone does manage to overbook a train. (never seen it) worst case they get put in the lounge car or something for their trip. They maybe get a but grumpy or something but they still get where they are going.

Amtrak overbooks corridor trains regularly - mainly because they have no way of knowing exactly how many passengers on multi-ride tickets will show up. When this happens the passengers riding on multi-ride tickets get stuck in the cafe car.

Seems fair enough--a passenger on a multi-ride ticket can't be considered overbooked.

Back in the day there were no overbookings--there were "duplicate sales," and it was up to the conductor to figure something out after the passenger boarded and the train was en route.

I was on a VIA train in Canada earlier this year where a female Service Manager struck a male passenger from Israel and yelled anti-Semitic slurs after he recorded her lipping him off on his cell phone.

Video, of course, didn't go onto YouTube, but the Service Manager tried to have him thrown off the train. Didn't work out too well as chance had it, the Mayor of the town in which he was to be thrown off happened to be on the train, and was a lot more credible when the police came aboard, than the lippy Service Manager.

A few Amtrak employees have told that "bad ordered employees" generally get straightened out pretty quick by both Amtrak and the union...one of the Cascades conductors told me its probably one of the most fairest systems in dealing with HR issues he's seen.

Reviewing this topic, this thought comes to mind:

Boarding an airplane, second only to surgery, where else in this life have you voluntarily surrendered so much personal control to others?

I flew almost every week for nine years. Don't recall giving up personal control... what examples are you referring to?

Mr. Olesen, by "voluntary surrender personal of control", I mean----

"Electronic strip search" to get near an aircraft.

Buckling up

Disable electronic playthings.

Go to potty when they say you can.

The controls are reasonable and in the interest of passenger safety - and simply a "price" that need be paid to accomplish such.

Hope this adequately explains.

Having a cavity search tends to piss people off. That and the stinky asshole with the muscle shirt and the F¥(€ You ball cap.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:01 am Mr. Olesen, by "voluntary surrender personal of control", I mean----

"Electronic strip search" to get near an aircraft.

Buckling up

Disable electronic playthings.

Go to potty when they say you can.

The controls are reasonable and in the interest of passenger safety - and simply a "price" that need be paid to accomplish such.

Hope this adequately explains.

Yep, it does... I'd say I give up more to operate a motor vehicle than I do getting on an airplane.

Wearing a seatbelt on an airplane? Consider the fact you're forced by every state in the US to wear a seatbelt while in the front seat of a moving vehicle, and the helmet laws for motorcycles and even bicycles are equally intrusive.

If I chose to ride without a helmet or not wear my seatbelt, that should be a choice *I* get to make and bear the consequences for. It's not like anyone else is physically injured by my lack of desire to wear safety equipment.

Disabling electronic playthings... It's a lot less strict now than it was 5-10 years ago, in that e-readers and tablets can be used at all times. Yet... hands-free laws for motorists are increasingly becoming more stringent. In many states, you can't even hold an electronic device without risking a $200 ticket, yet there's no statutory prevention of playing around with a touchscreen embedded in the dashboard or to eat food with both hands. Neither of those risk a ticket unless I actually cause an accident.

Go potty when they say you can.... Sure, airlines don't want you walking around during movements on the ground or while maneuvering. But try peeing on the side of the road without risking a ticket.

If you don't want the electronic strip search, apply for TSA PreCheck. The naked scanners in those lanes aren't used unless you are randomly selected to go thru it, and you don't have to take your shoes off or take out the electronics.

eolesen wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:37 amIf you don't want the electronic strip search, apply for TSA PreCheck.

Mr. Olesen, I had PreCheck for a while during '14 and '15 when it was selectively a "freebie". It was nice, but I'm not sure if my Left hand can be fingerprinted (they do have 'em somewhere; I'm a Veteran) thanks to Sixth Grade dodgeball (gee, all these things kids can't do anymore). I will have made only four RT flights this year (one overseas) and I have to question how much in $$ is it worth for these priority services for a retired 78yo guy whose time is now only worth a plugged nickel.

Why CBP had to whack their "Returning US Citizen, no checked baggage, nothing to declare" express line, escapes me. That was also nice while it lasted, but again I'm not about to pay (as well as the fingerprinting problem) $150 for one overseas trip a year with TrustedTraveler.