Penn Station turnaround for Empire Connection?

[Backshophoss]

Amtrak's P 32's 3rd rail shoes fold up when not used,when setup for LIRR 3rd rail,are fixed shoes when setup for GCT(MN/NYC)3rd rail.
The M-2's could have operated into NYP if "barefoooted"(no shoes)as the ex NH wire was 11kv 25hz untill Cos Cob was shut down ,and
ConnDOT converted that to 12.5 kv 80 hz from Con ED and CL&P/UL.The M-2's had MG/MA sets for low voltage power needs,till
they were swapped out with a static inverter.
That ended any chance for the M-2's into Penn
The only possible restriction was the "air gap" between the wire and the resistor grid housing on the M-2's roof

Extending 13.2kv 25hz wire to DV would require a Substation connected to the PRR/Amtrak grid or to Con-Ed with a HD static inverter
to create 13.2kv v25hz power.

Believe the "Hang up" non the Siemens Dual mode Charger is the weight of the on board power. storage device.
Might be solved by using A-1-A trucks on the dual mode Charger.

[Railjunkie]

STrRedWolf: why does the Spuyten Duyvil bridge need power at all? Your only traffic on that route is either dual-mode, which obviously needs no wire, or third-rail MU which runs in long enough sets to reach power on either side of the swing section.

The problem with this theory is, no third rail on the Empire connection except at CP Empire the mouth of the Empire tunnel into NY Penn. So once again I ask why run third rail for 10.2 miles to MNRR where Amtrak dual mode shoes are not compatible with MNRR.

[Railjunkie]

Andrew , i would think something like the Brightline powercar, one each end for short distance trains , doubled up at the front for the likes of the LSL.
The key would be the ability of the diesel to cover any "gaps" anyway , and supplement the 3rd rail if enough current could not be drawn for the 3rd rail. A similar concept to a hybrid car , except without the battery. The requirement is that it can run both on the 3rd rail and diesel at the same time , not a problem with today's controls.

Wonderful idea. Lets spend more money, lets add a totally new system to an already cash strapped maintenance program. LETS BUY AN EMU. How will it run on Metro North under running third rail, will Metro North allow Amtrak to pull power off their third rail. Then through the magic of buff-dom switch to over running third rail on the Empire connection, which by the way doesn't even exist on the current line for 10 ish miles, let alone anywhere north of Croton. See above post. A hybrid EMU holy crap what an idea that will work. Kinda sound like what we have know.

So in summary. You want NYS to pony up the $$$ to run third rail from Croton North Station to MP 75.8(division post) then Amtrak to run third rail from MP 75.8 to MP 142 Albany. To save on a carbon footprint, spend a dollar to save a penny. We will ass/u/me that they agree on which variety third rail to use on the new sections. Still leaves the issue with Penn and the way things normally go the new section above the division post.

NIMBYS are not going to allow third rail substations along the river, I dont think. Plus if you could take a trip up the Hudson above Pougkeepsie and let me know how much money its going to cost to move a few hill sides to get the substations in.

[mtuandrew]

Junkie: yes, I know, I was responding to a proposal to add third rail. The substations will have to come if NYS wants to run MNRR service into Penn Station, as well as second main track for the entire distance, as well as a shoe that works with both under-running and over-running third rail without needing to “get out and under” to flip each one manually.

NYS and Amtrak would be wasting money to run electric north of Poughkeepsie not because of construction costs, but because they’d spend more on mollifying & fighting NIMBYs than on building the fool thing. And good luck keeping the legislature and governorship after approving construction of an overhead wire 25kV 60Hz project - there’s a whole lot of money in that area that would become available to political campaigns aimed squarely at ending such a problem. (See California’s Central Valley.)

[rcthompson04]

STrRedWolf: why does the Spuyten Duyvil bridge need power at all? Your only traffic on that route is either dual-mode, which obviously needs no wire, or third-rail MU which runs in long enough sets to reach power on either side of the swing section.

The problem with this theory is, no third rail on the Empire connection except at CP Empire the mouth of the Empire tunnel into NY Penn. So once again I ask why run third rail for 10.2 miles to MNRR where Amtrak dual mode shoes are not compatible with MNRR.

There is no need to run third rail or any electric power north of the Empire tunnel into NYP. The only change I could see being realistic is replacing the third rail with overhead wires in the Empire tunnel and buying dual modes that run under wire so you could have a bigger pool of dual modes capable of running to places other than the Empire Service. Those dual modes could in theory run a lot more trains and eliminate some other engine switches elsewhere. Then you could use the power on the Vermonter, Pennsylvanian, Shuttles, and the Northeast Regionals that run into Virginia along with the Empire Service. Maybe that makes sense if there is an expansion of regional service in a place like Pennsylvania or Massachusetts for example too.

[Backshophoss]

The AL45-DP is an underpowered in diesel mode,if BBD did a little more R+D work for something better than 2 class eight truck engines
could have been developed,that 900 gal fuel tank it has limits it's range away from the wire!

It would have been nice if the power distribution network for the 3rd rail along the W30th st branch was still there
and useable,NYC pulled everything off the branch related to 3rd rail.

AGAIN.to string wire to DV would require a substation some where near 110th st tied into the PRR/Amtrak Grid and/or to
Con-Ed to provide 13.2 kv 25hz power.

[DutchRailnut]

it would require a sub station every two miles, as DC power drop is unacceptable after 1 mile .
each sub station feeds one mile in both directions.

[STrRedWolf]

Here's my thinking: Having to go from LIRR third rail to diesel, only to switch diesels at Albany, is expensive as hell in the long term. Also, DC power is itself expensive and wasteful as well, since AC is known to travel much longer distances.

Yes, I'm thinking money over the long term.

So why can't we swing a deal with Metro North, string 60Hz catenary with a transition point between EMPIRE and INWOOD, a mobile string on the bridge, and from Metro North territory all the way up to Albany? Metro North can use catenery with their current equipment, so use it! Get rid of the DC third rail after the connection point.

Oh wait I already know the answer to that: politics.

[east point]

First Amtrak's 25 Hz power is 12.0 Kv nominal. MNRR's proposal to run some Hudson line trains to NYP will require restoration of 2 main tracks from north of the swing bridge and the bridge to the present 2 main tracks. As well MNRR will have to add power one of two ways. Add 3rd rail power on both the 2 main tracks to meet NYP's 3rd rail. Or---------- Buy M-8 type rail cars and add overhead CAT from NYP - the tracks north of Sputy where the M-8s could change to the under running 3rd rail. The shoes would need to be able to retrack before getting to NYP.

By using the M-8 type the trains could continue onto the Hell gate route back toward New Rochelle and New Haven.
Whether the CAT is 12.5 Kv 60 Hz or 12.0Kv 25 Hz the problem of a transformer capable of 25 Hz would be needed on the M-8 types.
We could probably expect the CAT to be 12.5 Kv 60Hz.

One additional thought for this service to work without major delays the bridge should be replaced by a high level fly over that would fly over the intersection of the NYG route speeding both MNRR and Amtrak.

[Backshophoss]

M-8's don't have the room needed for an IRON core main transformer,when ConnDOT went to commercial power(12.5kz 60hz)
they gave up on NY Penn,so they could run on Amtrak's 25 kv wire for SLE service
Rebuilding the 3rd rail Grid to CP Empire is from scratch as is the needed 3rd rail on the Hellgate line to allow changeover to DC power
for the M-8's to get into Penn from CP Gate eastward

[David Benton]

Andrew , i would think something like the Brightline powercar, one each end for short distance trains , doubled up at the front for the likes of the LSL.
The key would be the ability of the diesel to cover any "gaps" anyway , and supplement the 3rd rail if enough current could not be drawn for the 3rd rail. A similar concept to a hybrid car , except without the battery. The requirement is that it can run both on the 3rd rail and diesel at the same time , not a problem with today's controls.

Wonderful idea. Lets spend more money, lets add a totally new system to an already cash strapped maintenance program. LETS BUY AN EMU. How will it run on Metro North under running third rail, will Metro North allow Amtrak to pull power off their third rail. Then through the magic of buff-dom switch to over running third rail on the Empire connection, which by the way doesn't even exist on the current line for 10 ish miles, let alone anywhere north of Croton. See above post. A hybrid EMU holy crap what an idea that will work. Kinda sound like what we have know.

So in summary. You want NYS to pony up the $$$ to run third rail from Croton North Station to MP 75.8(division post) then Amtrak to run third rail from MP 75.8 to MP 142 Albany. To save on a carbon footprint, spend a dollar to save a penny. We will ass/u/me that they agree on which variety third rail to use on the new sections. Still leaves the issue with Penn and the way things normally go the new section above the division post.

NIMBYS are not going to allow third rail substations along the river, I dont think. Plus if you could take a trip up the Hudson above Pougkeepsie and let me know how much money its going to cost to move a few hill sides to get the substations in.

I never mentioned EMU's. I said a power car on each end , to save turnarounds at both ends , and to spread the 3rd rail collection. I also never intended to imply electrifying to Albany. At least not straight away. !0 miles to DV , yeah well if they can't afford that , they're in trouble. Again , with today's technology , I wouldn't expect it to cost much more than replacing the current diesels with similar old tech Diesel / 3rd rail. Hitachi pretty much have units ready to go in the UK, with battery options as well.
You could turn it around , its kinda crazy to have the current Hybrid locos, with all that equipment just to cater for 2 or 3 miles out of Penn.
Having said that , I do think the overhead catenary mooted would be a better solution. Just even more politically unachievable.
But things will change, sooner or later , carbon emissions will come into it, and Amtrak's current equipment and thinking won't measure up . If your going to buy equipment with a 30 year life cycle , you have to think what the requirements will be in 10 -20 years time.

[Railjunkie]

Mr Benton

If we are using power cars then under FRA regs they would be considered locomotives and subject to the same inspections. So lets spend twice the money to get a train over the road vs, a single dual mode locomotive. Again why does Amtrak need to electrify the entire Empire connection?? I see no gain in that program, only money spent on 10 miles of RR that could be used somewhere else.

Mr Thompson04

There is wire hung from about an engine length north of CP Empire and on into Penn.

mtuandrew

The only single track on the entire connection is DV bridge to CP12(MNRR) and the Empire tunnel. I dont think the Empire tunnel could ever be re built for double track

[David Benton]

Rail Junkie, I would have thought money saved not having to turn the trains at each end would outweigh the extra inspection costs. In the future , I would think Amtrak would want to increase its amount of electric running, all I'm saying at the moment is to buy equipment that is capable of it. I.e the current locos replacements. I guess it doesn't really matter where that extra running is , just utilising the existing 3rd rail currently running diesel seems like low hanging fruit. And something to sell to NY State as no diesel on Manhattan. or indeed , within 100 miles of NYC.

[mtuandrew]

And something to sell to NY State as no diesel on Manhattan. or indeed , within 100 miles of NYC.

That’s the best and most practical reason I’ve read yet for Amtrak running electric to Poughkeepsie. NYC is moving towards Manhattan being vehicular-emissions-free, a trend that I expect will continue under all mayors in the future. As such, the city or state may consider kicking in funding and land for substations to electrify the Empire Connection even before MNRR joins the party.

Biofuel diesel makes more sense to me, but that is a very good point, Mr. Benton.

[EuroStar]

Believe the "Hang up" non the Siemens Dual mode Charger is the weight of the on board power. storage device.
Might be solved by using A-1-A trucks on the dual mode Charger.

In the case of NJT and the ALP-45DMs, I thought that they could not go to three wheeled trucks due to loading gauge and certain bridge weight restrictions. Is there a reason to think that the same considerations do not apply east of Hudson on at least some portion of the trackage? Some of the bridges are certainly as old as the ones on the west side of the Hudson, but maybe the clearance issues are fewer or already have been remedied?