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  • Amtrak: PTC Mandate, Progress System Wide

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1486073  by EuroStar
 
DutchRailnut wrote:seeking permission does not mean they will get it.
The only reason to not get permission from the FRA will be political football between the administration and some Democratic leaning states. If politics does not come into this, they will get it. It will be last moment and "temporary" and will get extended a few times, but on cost benefit basis they will get it and it will be renewed as long as we have no major accident on any of those non-PTC segments. Anything like the Cascades wreck will put an end to it, but as long as those are avoided the permission will be given.
 #1486143  by Ken W2KB
 
>>>"Although that plan is underway, Amtrak's goal is to continue to operate all its current routes after the first of the year, Naparstek said. "Exactly how we accomplish this will vary across our network, based on the specifics of each route," he said. "But ... we believe we will have strategies in place that will permit us to continue operations until operational PTC or PTC-equivalency is achieved for all our network."<<<

Continuing operation "strategies" might include the bus substitutions. This statement does not expressly state that the operation will be all rail.
 #1486145  by mtuandrew
 
Ken W2KB wrote:Continuing operation "strategies" might include the bus substitutions. This statement does not expressly state that the operation will be all rail.
Ding ding ding. It also doesn’t say whether such non-PTC segments will be at speed if operated by train, or if Amtrak will only operate at restricted speed only.
 #1486165  by Backshophoss
 
Most of the P40's/42's have Qualcomm sat domes for GPS tracking,Believe Qualcomm has developed a remote kill switch option along with "real time tracking",
Speed/direction tracking,so a "form D"/Track warrant(GCOR rules) on "steroids" should be possible after updating the control box send/receiver "radio".
There would need to be connections to allow I-ETMS/ACSES to take "control" when entering that territory,from PTC Dark territory.
A retaliative "quick fix" $$$$ wise. :wink:
 #1486202  by Ken W2KB
 
The House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines and Hazardous Materials held its second hearing of the year on Sept. 13 on implementation of Positive Train Control (PTC).

>>> NTSB: “Chairman Sumwalt said NTSB urges swift implementation, but noted that only about 40% of the nation’s rail network will operate under PTC, which he says leaves a significantly decreased level of safety along non-PTC track-miles.”<<<

This testimony – “significantly decreased level of safety” - will be introduced by plaintiff’s counsel in the event of an accident on non-PTC territory, and effectively says to the jury, ‘empty Amtrak’s pockets’. This statement essentially firmly supports any decision by Amtrak to not operate on non-PTC track effective January 1st. :(

https://www.railwayage.com/regulatory/h ... n-display/
 #1486232  by mtuandrew
 
We here know that the safety level won't actually decrease after the New Year, it just won't increase to the level desired by Amtrak. We also know that train operation is considerably safer than road travel, and that bustitution will put travelers at more risk than operation over non-PTC corridors. Others may not know that.

Is anyone here skilled at writing petitions? I think it's worth asking our representatives to introduce legislation that:
1) Requires the FRA to insure Amtrak (rather than NRPC self-insuring) in case of an incident or accident preventable by PTC when operating over non-PTC track after 12/31/18, until such time as the host railroad has fully installed and tested PTC or a comparable safety system on that line segment
-- a) and if the host railroad misses its installation deadline as agreed to with the FRA, responsibility for liability payments after that deadline will transfer to them
2) Requires Amtrak to continue operating its current route segments by train on the same trackage as of 10/1/18, or via alternate trackage that reaches 99% of the current passenger facilities, except in case of force majeure in which case Amtrak and the host railroad will negotiate an alternate route and timeline for return to the original track segment, and
3) Requires the FRA to develop a "super Form D/Track Warrant" (stored "warrant" of PTC instructions for dark or ABS tracks; automatic hand-off to active PTC; emergency stop via secure cellular/radio signal, ACSES transponder, or legacy Automatic Train Stop) in conjunction with Amtrak, AAR, and other interested parties; and to complete implementation for PTC-exempt tracks that host scheduled passenger traffic or hazardous materials shipments above FRA Class 2 speeds (25F/30P) on or before 1/1/2024.
 #1487214  by John_Perkowski
 
As has been said so many times, PTC will not prevent a rail failing or an idiot driver racing his vehicle to the grade crossing...and failing. It won’t prevent a washed out culvert or a major rockslide/landslide. It won’t prevent a river captain losing control of his barges and them colliding with a piering on the Mississippi River whilst a train is crossing.

It’s A Tool in the safety box. One. No more, no less.
 #1491274  by Amtrak706
 
As we get closer to the deadline, sections of railroad without cab signals where passenger trains are allowed 79 mph are slowly getting PTC. I know there are other factors in max speed like grade crossing activation times and signal spacing, but is there any reason a system like I-ETMS would not satisfy the FRA rule that requires cab signals above 79 mph? At the very least, passenger trains could be bumped to 90 where possible to fully utilize the capability of Class 5 trackage.
 #1491295  by ThirdRail7
 
I doubt the FRA will allow it. Unless something changes, when the regulations begin in earnest, if your trains doesn't have an active form of PTC with active Cab Signals, they plan on lowering the speed to 79mph. If your trains doesn't have an active form of PTC and an active cab signal system, you will not be able to exceed 59mph. I believe there are already rules on some of the books indicating this. I know SEPTA trains with PTC failures must operate not exceeding 79mph if they have cab signals.

As such, I don't think they'll be agreeable to allowing PTC to run the show,
 #1491317  by Amtrak706
 
That’s disappointing although not unexpected. You would think that PTC should be considered even safer than cab signals, but I guess the language in the law specifically requiring cab signals is the obstacle.
 #1491335  by JimBoylan
 
Time to read the Regulation again. Cab Signals were never the only way to run 80 or more miles per hour.
Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 236.0(d)(1) Prior to December 31, 2015, where any train is permitted to operate at a speed of 80 or more miles per hour, an automatic cab signal, automatic train stop, or automatic train control system complying with the provisions of this part shall be installed, unless an FRA approved PTC system meeting the requirements of this part for the subject speed and other operating conditions, is installed.

The answer to the original question is in the next paragraph. It still doesn't say that Cab Signals are the only way to go.
Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 236.0(d)(2) On and after December 31, 2015, where any train is permitted to operate at a speed of 80 or more miles per hour, a PTC system complying with the provisions of subpart I shall be installed and operational, unless FRA approval to continue to operate with an automatic cab signal, automatic train stop, or automatic train control system complying with the provisions of this part has been justified to, and approved by, the Associate Administrator.
 #1491355  by ThirdRail7
 
JimBoylan wrote: The answer to the original question is in the next paragraph. It still doesn't say that Cab Signals are the only way to go.
Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 236.0(d)(2) On and after December 31, 2015, where any train is permitted to operate at a speed of 80 or more miles per hour, a PTC system complying with the provisions of subpart I shall be installed and operational, unless FRA approval to continue to operate with an automatic cab signal, automatic train stop, or automatic train control system complying with the provisions of this part has been justified to, and approved by, the Associate Administrator.
While I used cab signals (since it a major part of the ATC and ATS system and it commonly lumped together,particularly since a lot of Amtrak equipment no longer has a separate cut out for train control and speed control) as an example, your post is largely irrelevant.

Let's cut and paste part my opening statement:

Unless something changes, when the regulations begin in earnest,

Has it not occurred to you that new regulations will kick in January, 2019? Your quote from a 2015 regulation means very little....unless something changes, like an amendment to the deadline or a rule change.

This is because unless something changes, if you do not have an active form of PTC AND ATS/ATC (routed though our cab signal system), you will not be allowed to exceed 79mph.

To drive the point home, let's look back on the SEPTA operating profile (which is also a NORAC rule at this point.) Up until earlier this year, a SEPTA train which wasn't equipped with PTC could operate up to 100mph on the NEC with cab signals only (and remember,I'm bundling it for brevity.) If the cab signals or speed control failed, it could not exceed 79mph.

Now, fast forward to the roll out of PTC equipped SEPTA trains. Now, if the PTC system fails, they must reduce to 79mph on a territory they were doing 100mph last year....despite the fact they still have the former systems working.

So, I seriously doubt if they will all of a sudden allow other railroads to use PTC only to exceed 79mph. I sincerely doubt that Amtrak will be allowed to exceed 79mph without active PTC (even though they are doing it now) for the direction of movement if things stay their course.
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