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  • Acela Replacement and Disposition Discussion

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1483019  by gokeefe
 
They will be the same length. The power units are more compact. 30% more passengers. Should make for an interesting platform experience at NYP. Nothing world ending just exciting from time to time ...

That being said ... It's 8 more trainsets than the current 20 ... Something is either getting cut or being moved ...
 #1483026  by east point
 
BandA wrote:Everyone assumes the AX-2 sets are going to have more cars.

That assumption comes from Amtrak's statement that the AX=2s would be able to add cars in the future. The option is there in the contract. However we probably would expect that there would be too much change in technical specs by 10 years to justify just additional cars ?. Maybe new cars would go all on one loco set with cars removed to other train sets ? Or another possibility if for whatever reason one or more locos become unusable then its cars from that train would be added to other trains.
 #1483032  by mtuandrew
 
BandA wrote:Everyone assumes the AX-2 sets are going to have more cars.
They will have 7 articulated cars from the get-go, as specified in the contract. Mr. O’Keefe also rightly points out that the power units are about half the length of the AX-1 power cars, which allows the AX-2 to fit in the current Acela barns.

Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.
 #1483037  by Acela150
 
BandA wrote:Everyone assumes the AX-2 sets are going to have more cars.
I don't know where you heard that they won't.. It has been widely publicized that the new HST will have 7 passenger cars. 2 Power Cars making it a total of 9.
 #1483044  by electricron
 
I would like to point out that each Acela car is around 85 feet in length while the new Avelia cars will be around 6o feet in length. While can not find the specific car length for an Avelia car, I can find it for an AGV car; each AGV intermediate car is 17.3 meters in length, which converts to 56 feet 9 inches.

Some cutting of each car’s length has to be done to keep axle weight lower than the maximum allowed, putting 2 cars under 4 axles vs 8 axles means a 50% decrease in axles. Achieving a 50% reduction in weight is very difficult with just material choices alone, some cutting in mass is also required, therefore the shorter car length.

So each passenger car is going to be 25 to 30 feet shorter than an Acela car. Some simple math follows;
Acela without power cars = 6 x 85 feet = 510 feet
Avelia without power cars = 9 x 60 feet = 540 feet.

That’s only 30 feet more, requiring each new power car to be 15 feet shorter than the older Acela power cars.
I don’t know where some found they will have just 7 passenger cars, I couldn’t find a link after a quick search that stated any. Videos I’ve seen seem to have just 7 cars.
Therefore, 540 feet / 7 cars = around 77 feet per car.

Never-the-less, these new Avelia Liberty cars will be shorter in length than 85 feet of the old Acela cars.
 #1483098  by NeedhamLine
 
Acela150 wrote: I don't know where you heard that they won't.. It has been widely publicized that the new HST will have 7 passenger cars. 2 Power Cars making it a total of 9.
Every mention of the Avelia Liberty in Amtrak and Alstom materials that I've seen has referenced nine passenger cars and two power cars, with the ability to expand to twelve passenger cars. For example, see https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-n ... t-corridor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That would make sense, given that the AGV cars (on which these are based) are about 1/3 shorter than the current AX-1 cars. The extra passenger capacity likely comes from shorter power cars (so the total length of passenger cars is a bit longer) and only one vestibule per car instead of two.
 #1483100  by Matt Johnson
 
NeedhamLine wrote:The extra passenger capacity likely comes from shorter power cars (so the total length of passenger cars is a bit longer) and only one vestibule per car instead of two.
And I believe less cafe car space. In fact, I'm sure there's less cafe car space, as even if they devote an entire car to food service that's still less than the current Acela cafe car. The Alstom promo vid gives a glimpse of the cafe design.
Last edited by Matt Johnson on Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1483118  by jonnhrr
 
mtuandrew wrote:Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.
Curious as to why you think there won't be any Regionals that don't serve off-corridor. Also if you force a transfer won't that drive people away and cause Amtrak to have to reduce fares to fill seats?

Jon
 #1483131  by Ridgefielder
 
jonnhrr wrote:
mtuandrew wrote:Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.
Curious as to why you think there won't be any Regionals that don't serve off-corridor. Also if you force a transfer won't that drive people away and cause Amtrak to have to reduce fares to fill seats?

Jon
I assume that what he's trying to say is that the AX-1 equipment plus the new AX-2 will replace the Amfleet + ACS64 consists on the Regionals that don't extend into Virginia or to Springfield, MA.

Realistically that can't happen until Mystic, CT and Westerly, RI get high levels.
 #1483136  by electricron
 
Ridgefielder wrote:
jonnhrr wrote:
mtuandrew wrote:Wave goodbye to every Regional that doesn’t serve off-Corridor destinations! It looks like precious few non-Acelas will even serve destinations north of NYP anymore, excepting the Vermonter and the Virginians. A forced transfer is one way Amtrak can drive up prices and pay for the pretty new Lionel Flyers, after all.
Curious as to why you think there won't be any Regionals that don't serve off-corridor. Also if you force a transfer won't that drive people away and cause Amtrak to have to reduce fares to fill seats?

Jon
I assume that what he's trying to say is that the AX-1 equipment plus the new AX-2 will replace the Amfleet + ACS64 consists on the Regionals that don't extend into Virginia or to Springfield, MA.

Realistically that can't happen until Mystic, CT and Westerly, RI get high levels.
Who knows when that may happen, it could happen next year if money appeared to do so magically.

QJust do the math guys, 28 longer train sets replacing 20 over a corridor that is limited to the number of trains running on it. Assuming the same number of HSR train sets are in maintenance and parked in a yard somewhere as back-ups, there are 8 more HSR train sets in service meaning there are 8 less regional trains running through to Boston.

Of course, those same extra 8 train sets could be turning in New York to increase the number of HSR train sets in service south of NYC, allowing the same number of Amfleet trains running north of NYC to Boston ——which I believe I have read is Amtrak’s plans.

I don’t have a fool proof crystal ball to predict the future, so either scenario could be the case 3 to 4 years from now.
 #1483141  by superstar
 
electricron wrote:
QJust do the math guys, 28 longer train sets replacing 20 over a corridor that is limited to the number of trains running on it. Assuming the same number of HSR train sets are in maintenance and parked in a yard somewhere as back-ups, there are 8 more HSR train sets in service meaning there are 8 less regional trains running through to Boston.

Of course, those same extra 8 train sets could be turning in New York to increase the number of HSR train sets in service south of NYC, allowing the same number of Amfleet trains running north of NYC to Boston ——which I believe I have read is Amtrak’s plans.

I don’t have a fool proof crystal ball to predict the future, so either scenario could be the case 3 to 4 years from now.
Amtrak said at the time of the order that the frequency additions would be for hourly service north of New York and half hourly south during peak hours. I seem to remember coming up with three Regional frequencies to Boston that would be replaced with Acelas, assuming it's hourly between 5:00 AM and 5:00 PM, which are the current boundaries for Acela departures, and there are no more slots obtained over the drawbridges. I think that left two or three BOS-WAS regionals if you keep the current slate of BOS-Virginia frequencies. It might make more sense, if possible, to cut a couple of the Virginia ones back to NYP and trade them for WAS/NYP-BOS trains, I can't imagine that many people, comparatively speaking, travel all the way from Virginia to New England.
 #1483145  by Backshophoss
 
Amtrak could move the Boston Regional trains to the Inland route via Springfield-Worcester to free up slots for the Acela II's
The next Nightmare for Amtrak and Metro North will be Walk bridge replacement project.
 #1486086  by NeedhamLine
 
Glad to see some concrete progress on the Acela 2 front, albeit from a subcontractor: https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-n ... -power-car" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was beginning to wonder where the photos of shell construction were, given that we're about a year out from the date when the first complete prototype trainset is scheduled to be delivered.

It will be interesting to see whether the shells for the passenger cars will be constructed in the US or abroad - I have read that their aluminum construction method is much more specialized than the steel construction of the power car shells. As I recall, the Buy America waiver that Amtrak got as part of its HSR procurement exempted all aluminum bodyshells and up to two entire prototype trainsets.

Also of note is that although the nose and cab are not yet attached, the shell has been painted (except for decals), including the gray swoosh that will continue onto the nose.
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