turning trains/engines at GCT

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Trainer
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by Trainer » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:09 am

Patrick Boylan wrote:Terrapin Station, I assume you and Dutch are talking about the recent Spuyten Duyvil wreck, which so far nobody has named in this thread. About all I can quibble about Dutch's statement is a bit of hyperbole, the push operation had very little to do with what transpired. Do you doubt that the wreck's immediate cause was engineer's inattention? Other than alerters and other locomotive noises, which might not have helped the engineer pay attention better, what is there about push vs pull that you feel contributed to that wreck?
The reason it keeps coming up is because early media stories reported that the cab alert system that would have been functioning in "pull" mode was not designed to function in "push" mode. I don't know if that is true, but I have not seen that claim refuted here or elsewhere.

If (?) that's true, then push/pull may well have made a difference. Safety systems that only function half the time are idiotic. The notion that an alerter system "might not have helped" if the train was pointed the other way is not a credible argument. It might have helped a lot.

Patrick Boylan
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by Patrick Boylan » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:57 am

I once again ask that we discuss the advantages and disadvantages of push pull in one of the existing threads, so if anybody wants to read my stimulating and entertaining reply to Trainer's post, please go to http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=153602" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Push Pull

I'm pretty sure we've had enough posts that say it is possible to turn trains/engines at GCT, but I'd sure love to see in this thread anybody's posts that might add some new about that subject.

truck6018
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by truck6018 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:44 am

Trainer wrote:
Patrick Boylan wrote:Terrapin Station, I assume you and Dutch are talking about the recent Spuyten Duyvil wreck, which so far nobody has named in this thread. About all I can quibble about Dutch's statement is a bit of hyperbole, the push operation had very little to do with what transpired. Do you doubt that the wreck's immediate cause was engineer's inattention? Other than alerters and other locomotive noises, which might not have helped the engineer pay attention better, what is there about push vs pull that you feel contributed to that wreck?
The reason it keeps coming up is because early media stories reported that the cab alert system that would have been functioning in "pull" mode was not designed to function in "push" mode. I don't know if that is true, but I have not seen that claim refuted here or elsewhere.

If (?) that's true, then push/pull may well have made a difference. Safety systems that only function half the time are idiotic. The notion that an alerter system "might not have helped" if the train was pointed the other way is not a credible argument. It might have helped a lot.
You're getting two different things confused with one another. Push-pull, and different types of of safety appliances. I speculating that if this accident happened with a consist of M-3's, the deadman vs alerter issue would never have been brought up.

FL9AC
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by FL9AC » Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:18 pm

It was an accident....this can be speculated forever. Trains can't be looped at all outlying points so case closed. as far as alerters vs. Deadman devices there's still a margin for error with each form of protection so that argument is ridiculous as well.

Silverliner II
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by Silverliner II » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:59 pm

Regarding the restrictions on turning trains on the loop at GCT: is it by chance FRA excepted track?

Last spring, I was on an Acela Express out of Philly to Newark that had cab signal issues coming into Philly. It was decided to run the train up the Harrisburg Line to clear the signals for Zoo just past the Belmont overpass, then the engineer could change ends and run via the "Pittsburgh-New York Subway" underneath Zoo, then out onto the NEC pointed towards New York, from the other power car, which had good cabs (though passengers would be riding backwards to Beantown).

The Subway is FRA excepted track. Yet we went through it, and a certain Amtrak Keystone train would have as well a couple months ago, had it not kept shoving when it should have stopped...
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DutchRailnut
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by DutchRailnut » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:06 pm

no the loop is NOT FRA excepted track, but since no emergency exits exists it is normally not allowed to run passengers around loop.
unless permission is given by operations center.
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

Retired Triebfahrzeugführer. I am not a moderator.

cobra30689
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by cobra30689 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 8:51 pm

Silverliner II wrote:
The Subway is FRA excepted track. Yet we went through it, and a certain Amtrak Keystone train would have as well a couple months ago, had it not kept shoving when it should have stopped...
Definitely not in the timetable as such (as per Rule 99). 15mph with CSS in both directions.

Patrick Boylan
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by Patrick Boylan » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:28 am

What's CSS?

cobra30689
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by cobra30689 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:21 am

Cab signals....coded in both directions.

MattW
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by MattW » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:11 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:no the loop is NOT FRA excepted track, but since no emergency exits exists it is normally not allowed to run passengers around loop.
unless permission is given by operations center.
Well that answers a question I posted elsewhere some time ago, why they couldn't use the loop to keep a current of traffic and thus not have to make as many conflicting moves across the entire plant? It's too bad that adding the emergency exits would probably cost too much.

Penn Central
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by Penn Central » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:21 am

DutchRailnut wrote:no the loop is NOT FRA excepted track, but since no emergency exits exists it is normally not allowed to run passengers around loop.
unless permission is given by operations center.
MAS on the loop is 6 mph. That is real slow and by the time you make it to CP 1, you are 6-7 min late. Even if trains were looped in GCT, you would still need to turn engines and run around trains in POK ,Wassaic and Danbury. Danbury is the only place where that would be possible. They could also be turned at Devon and Brewster, which would not be a big help.

lirr42
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by lirr42 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:37 pm

MattW wrote:Well that answers a question I posted elsewhere some time ago, why they couldn't use the loop to keep a current of traffic and thus not have to make as many conflicting moves across the entire plant? It's too bad that adding the emergency exits would probably cost too much.
The loop is only accessible from a small few platform tracks, so having to route all trains, or most trains, over to the limited amount of through tracks will cause even more headaches than the fumes inhaled while inching through the loop.

MattW
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by MattW » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:53 am

lirr42 wrote:
MattW wrote:Well that answers a question I posted elsewhere some time ago, why they couldn't use the loop to keep a current of traffic and thus not have to make as many conflicting moves across the entire plant? It's too bad that adding the emergency exits would probably cost too much.
The loop is only accessible from a small few platform tracks, so having to route all trains, or most trains, over to the limited amount of through tracks will cause even more headaches than the fumes inhaled while inching through the loop.
My thinking was that with a current of traffic, with trains appearing on the correct side without having to cross over would actually open up a little bit of capacity. Of course, I wasn't envisioning all or even most trains looping, but with all the disadvantages and problems, it's a moot point anyways.

truck6018
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by truck6018 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:08 am

The main purpose of the loop is to yard trains. Inbound trains come into GCT, unload at the passenger loop tracks (38-42), then go around the loop into the yard. The opposite happens to take trains out of the yard.

lirr42
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Re: turning trains/engines at GCT

Post by lirr42 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:47 pm

I know the LIRR likes to keep all of their MU's facing the same way (every odd number facing west, every even number facing east) and strongly discourages looping or wyeing trains. Does Metro-North have a similar policy?

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