Pittsburgh to Detroit passenger trains, 1960

[Beech Cricker]

We're trying to determine how my Dad travelled by train from Pittsburgh to Detroit in July and November 1960. Despite his recollections of departing from the PRR's Pittsburgh Station and arriving at a Detroit station other than than the Michigan Central Depot (which the B&O used at the time), we're thinking he travelled via B&O. What were the train times for the B&O trains (I'm thinking the Ambassador) departing Pittsburgh and arriving Detroit? My Dad recalls departing Pittsburgh at about 10 p.m. and arriving Detroit around 6 a.m.

Jeff

[MC8000]

I looked through my old Guides and the closest one that I had to 1960 was from April, 1962.

I believe that your Dad would have taken the Ambassador (train 19) which departed from the P&LE Pittsburgh station at 12:25 AM, and arrived at the Michigan Central Station at Detroit at 07:55AM.

Hope this helps you out Jeff.

Charlie

[BaltOhio]

Charlie is correct. In fact, the "Ambassador" was the only through Pittsburgh-Detroit service available in mid- and late-1960. By then the PRR had given up on Detroit, and the remains of the "Red Arrow" tied up in Toledo. When it ran to Detroit, PRR used the Fort St. Union Depot, shared with C&O and Wabash. Heaven forbid it should use an NYC facility.

In July 1960, the WB "Ambassador" left the P&LE station at midnight EST and arrived at the MC station in Detroit at 7:35 AM EST. Note these are Standard Time. It was standard practice in those days for railroad timetables to show Standard Time only, regardless of whether an area was on Daylight Time, so adjustments should be made depending on whether a locality observed Daylight Time or not. Some did and some didn't.

Herb

[Beech Cricker]

Thanks, Charlie and Herb.

I has suspected he had travelled via B&O, hence my post in this forum.

I'm still confused, however, about his recollections of where he departed Pittsburgh and arrived in Detroit. With Pittsburgh, he described immediately passing almost right over the bus station then crossing the Allegheny--clearly the PRR's route westward from the Pennsylvania Station. At Detroit, he recalls a short walk from the station to Woodward Ave. Michigan Central Depot isn't exactly close to Woodward but Fort Street Union Depot was (surely he didn't come into the GTW's Brush Street Station). Yet, PRR had ceased passenger service to Detroit the year before (as you indicate, Herb).

My dad recalls not changing trains en route nor does he remember having his coach switched out to another train (he stayed up all night).

I think my dad's memories are a bit out of whack in terms of the stations. I'll have to quiz him further.

Jeff

[BaltOhio]

Jeff-

What you're describing is pretty clearly the PRR route. That raises the question, was 1960 the right year? Or, alternatively, had your dad been to Detroit earlier and just assumed it was the same route? Often non-railroaders/railfans don't pay much attention to such things, and if they've already made one or more trips to thesame place, they may just assume it's the same route this time.

Herb

[Beech Cricker]

Herb,

The July and November 1960 dates are firm. That much I'm confident in.

My dad now indicates he may be getting the Pennsylvania Station memory confused with trips I made out of that station. But he still doubts the possibility or liklihood of his having arrived at Michigan Central Depot in Detroit. He does not think he made that long a walk to Woodward Ave.

Jeff

[BaltOhio]

The MC station is right off Michigan Ave. Would he be confusing this with Woodward. Otherwise, it beats me. Seems to me, Fort St. station was gone by 1960, and only GTW used Bush St.

[Beech Cricker]

Correct, only GTW used Brush Street. Fort Street Union Depot was in service until the start of Amtrak.

Michigan Avenue is certainly a main artery...perhaps my dad caught his bus there and then headed up Woodward.

Jeff

[MC8000]

Herb. Thanks for clarifying the information that I provided Jeff. I should have mentioned that the PRR had already bowed out of the Detroit market at that point in time, so it couldn't have been an option to Jeff's Dad.
Jeff, the Ambassador was still quite a nice train at that point in time, it still carried a sleeper and lounge car, along with a full diner from Washington to Detroit. But what would you expect from the B&O right?
You gents are both correct on Brush Street Station, it was a GTW only facility. Fort Street depot stayed in use until Amtrak and still hosted the ex Wabash trains to St. Louis as well as the ex Pere Marquette trains to Grand Rapids and Chicago at the end. Its most famous feature was the beautiful old clock tower that stood on the corner of Fort and Third Streets. The station was razed in 1974 after some effort to save it fell by the wayside.

Charlie

[MLC]

As long as the B&O was an independent railroad, B&O trains arrived and departed from the Michigan Central Depot. Some short time after it was acquired by the C&O, B&O trains arrived and departed out of the Fort St. Station. This was true of the Ambassador, which stopped in Pittsburgh at the P&LE station.

Sometime after the C&O takeover, the eastbound Ambassador was combined with C&O train number 47 until Toledo where the train was split into B&O and C&O counterparts.

Also, the Ambassdor's name was eventually changed to the "Capital - Detroit".

I rode this train many times between Toledo and Pittsburgh.

All this ocurred around 1962-1965.

[Beech Cricker]

Jeff, the Ambassador was still quite a nice train at that point in time, it still carried a sleeper and lounge car, along with a full diner from Washington to Detroit. But what would you expect from the B&O right?

Fort Street depot stayed in use until Amtrak and still hosted the ex Wabash trains to St. Louis as well as the ex Pere Marquette trains to Grand Rapids and Chicago at the end. Its most famous feature was the beautiful old clock tower that stood on the corner of Fort and Third Streets. The station was razed in 1974 after some effort to save it fell by the wayside.

Charlie

Charlie, my dad described his trips from Pittsburgh to Detroit as miserable. From what he said it appears that he experienced multiple slow orders across Ohio. And the train was very dirty.

Regarding Fort Street Union Depot, I have previously done some digging on the Detroit newspapers' coverage of the last trains at that station as well as its 1974 razing. These articles can be found at www.rrhx.com.

[Passenger Extra]

Jeff, the Ambassador was still quite a nice train at that point in time, it still carried a sleeper and lounge car, along with a full diner from Washington to Detroit. But what would you expect from the B&O right?

Fort Street depot stayed in use until Amtrak and still hosted the ex Wabash trains to St. Louis as well as the ex Pere Marquette trains to Grand Rapids and Chicago at the end. Its most famous feature was the beautiful old clock tower that stood on the corner of Fort and Third Streets. The station was razed in 1974 after some effort to save it fell by the wayside.

Charlie

Charlie, my dad described his trips from Pittsburgh to Detroit as miserable. From what he said it appears that he experienced multiple slow orders across Ohio. And the train was very dirty.

Regarding Fort Street Union Depot, I have previously done some digging on the Detroit newspapers' coverage of the last trains at that station as well as its 1974 razing. These articles can be found at www.rrhx.com.

Of course I'm terribly biased, but that doesn't sound like 19 & 20 and at all. My dad worked it for years and our family put not a few miles on that train, and although the consist dwindled in later years it was always up to traditional B&O standards.

That train was considered the Detroit section of the Capitol, and it always carried Pullman accomodations, at least a dining /lounge and reclining seat coaches.

As for numerous slow orders, that doesn't sound like Akron-Chicago Division I remember either. Not that there weren't slow orders for track work or rough track in places, but not to the point of making a trip miserable.

[BaltOhio]

Once again, I have to wonder if your dad isn't confusing this with some other time and routing. The PRR I can believe, but PX is certainly right about the B&O. Even in the final days, B&O kept up its service and cleanliness. True, 1960 wasn't such a hot year for the B&O, and a lot of bad order freight cars were piling up and, I suppose, there was some deferred track maintenance, but like PX, I don't recall any lengthy slow orders in that period.

Herb H.

[MC8000]

I would have to agree with Herb on the quality of service on the B&O, it seemed to hold up very well even in the dark years of the late sixties. I never had the chance to ride a B&O train, but most of the firsthand accounts that I have heard as well as the photographic evidence tells a story of a vallient effort to at least put a brave face on a dismal situation.
There were a few railroads that kept service levels up to par in the sixties, the AT&SF, Grand Trunk, GN, Southern, SCL, and B&O all come to mind to me when I think of the roads that fought the good fight, but lost

Charlie W.

[Beech Cricker]

All,

I just got off the phone with my dad to quiz him further.

First the trips being in 1960 are firm, thus he would have had to have gone via B&O (Ambassador) as that road was the only one to offer through Pittsburgh-Detroit service at that time.

I THOUGHT my dad had told me some years ago that his trips to Detroit were on some dirty trains. When asked about that today he said that wasn't the case, that the cleanliness did not stand out one way or the other. My apologies to the B&O faithful for unjustly accusing the B&O of not keep things in order.

My dad does recall slow speeds and many stops through Ohio, possibly due to trackwork or traffic congestion. Then again this could have been a college kid's impatience coupled with the fact that he stayed up all night in a coach and was uncomfortable. He seems to think his train (not sure if it was the July or November) trip was late arriving Detroit but not by very much, perhaps a half hour?

Jeff