BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Discussion relating to the B&O up to it's 1972 merger into Chessie System. Visit the B&O Railroad Historical Society for more information. Also discussion of the C&O up to 1972. Visit the C&O Historical Society for more information. Also includes the WM up to 1972. Visit the WM Historical Society for more information.
Statkowski
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:44 am
Location: Cherry Tree, Pa.

BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by Statkowski » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:59 am

In 1918 there were two round trips daily (except Sunday) between DuBois and Clearfield, Pa. on the BR&P.

Any idea what their train numbers were? Standard equipment or gas-electric?
Ex-NYNH&H SS Opr

BR&P
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:58 pm

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by BR&P » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:28 pm

I presume you mean passenger, since there would be a lot of freight moves. (and your mention of a gas-electric confirms it)

Closest I can come is ETT #3, effective November 26, 1916.

Southward (compass east) First Class were #'s 71, 75, 73, and NYC 301. Third Class Local Freight #81 and Time Freight 37. 73 & 37 were daily, 71 and 301 were daily except Sunday, and 75 was Sunday only.

Northward (Compass west) First Class 72 and 74, and NYC 300. Second Class Time Freight 38 and Third Class local freight 80. 72, 72 and 38 were daily, 300 and 80 were daily except Sunday.

72, 73 and 74 did not run between NYC Jct and NYC passenger station on Sundays.

Statkowski
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:44 am
Location: Cherry Tree, Pa.

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by Statkowski » Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:23 am

According to New York Central's Pennsylvania Division Time Table No. 8, dated Sunday, October 8, 1918, the junction in Clearfield, Pa. where the BR&P's Clearfield & Mahoning line entered the NYC Yard was a manned (24-7) block station. Where the BR&P entered the NYC, it was NYC Junction. Where the NYC entered the BR&P (going in the other direction), it was BR&P (later B&O) Junction. Same location, two different names, depending on the railroad.

The NYC Time Table only shows the BR&P trains only running from BR&P Junction to Clearfield (Union) Station and back again. It does not show movement actually entering or departing the NYC/BR&P trackage. In other words, a BR&P train running from DuBois to Clearfield does not show up on the NYC Time Table until after it crossed the dividing line, cleared the switch and came to a stop, ready to reverse direction and run the half-mile between the junction and the passenger station. Likewise on BR&P trains departing Clearfield for points west (or north on the BR&P).

Most interesting on the NYC Time Table was the fact that it used NYC train numbers for the movements between BR&P Junction (also known as NYC Junction on the BR&P) and the Clearfield passenger station. This, when you stop and think about it, makes sense since the trains were running in the opposite direction - they stopped and went in the opposite direction - the original BR&P train numbers no longer applied. Clearfield-bound trains were no longer going forward, but for half a mile they were running backwards. DuBois-bound trains backed out of the station, stopped, and then proceeded forward onto their home tracks.

As earlier stated, there were two trains a day each way, as follows:
BR&P Junction (8.10 a.m.), Clearfield (8:12 a.m.). NYC No. 541.
Clearfield (11.39 a.m.), BR&P Junction (11.43 a.m.). NYC No. 540.
BR&P Junction (4.31 p.m.), Clearfield (4.33 p.m.). NYC No. 549.
Clearfield (7.00 p.m.), BR&P Junction (7.04 p.m.). NYC No. 548.

One can only assume after the BR&P train offloaded its passengers and whatever it pulled back up into the NYC yard to have its engine serviced and turned. If, at this point in time, it was a gas-electric, it ran up to the NYC yard just to get out of the way. There was not much storage room at all at the NYC passenger stub-end terminal in Clearfield.
Ex-NYNH&H SS Opr

BR&P
Posts: 4177
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:58 pm

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by BR&P » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:12 pm

Keep another thing in mind - that the movements from C&M to NYC Jct were calculated as toward or away from Rochester. Without digging I can't be sure, but I think BR&P considered moves from Rochester to be south while B&O considered them west.

The confusing part comes when - under whichever road it was - a train headed from C&M toward Clearfield was moving farther from Rochester and thus was a westbound - even tho compass direction is was essentially east.

Statkowski
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:44 am
Location: Cherry Tree, Pa.

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by Statkowski » Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:59 pm

Despite their compass heading, whether the BR&P or B&O considered trains heading to Clearfield from DuBois (an easterly run) as Southward/Westward/odd-numbered and trains heading to DuBois from Clearfield as Northward/Eastward/even-numbered is essentially immaterial. Just as geopolitical location has nothing to do with a railroad's station name (or, for that matter, a U.S. Postal Service post office name), compass direction and timetable direction have little to do with each other. There's a relationship, but nothing definitive.

Most North American railroads generally use east (even-numbered trains) and west (odd-numbered trains) designations. Add north and south to that in determining even-numbered/odd-numbered usage depends on the particular railroad. Generally, northward and eastward movements warranted even-numbered trains, while southward and westward movements warranted odd-numbered trains. Generally, but not always. The New Haven Railroad, running from Grand Central Terminal, New York City to South Station, Boston, was eastward by timetable direction. By compass, however, it was northward on the New York Central's tracks until the New Haven exited onto its own tracks, having exercised trackage rights over the New York Central portion. On the New Haven, north and east was even. On the New York Central, however, north and west was odd since their main line from Chicago ran eastward to Albany, New York before turning south to New York City. New York Central trains entering Grand Central Terminal were even-numbered (since they were heading "east" from Chicago) while New Haven trains entering Grand Central Terminal were odd-numbered (since they were heading "west" from Boston).

So, technically, the BR&P trains heading to Clearfield were westward by timetable, but once they arrived onto New York Central tracks, stopped, and reversed direction, they were again westward by timetable - but it was someone else's timetable.
Ex-NYNH&H SS Opr

ExCon90
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:22 pm

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by ExCon90 » Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:21 pm

The NYC was meticulous about east=even and west=odd. In Buffalo, the PRR passenger trains from Harrisburg (tt west to Emporium and north from there to Buffalo, although they kept their odd number) reached NYC rails at SS 49A and backed eastward from there to Central Terminal, which I think was only about a mile. For the backup move the NYC added a 0 to the PRR train number; departing trains backed from Central Terminal to 49A, and for that move the NYC added a 1 to the even number of the PRR train.

Statkowski
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:44 am
Location: Cherry Tree, Pa.

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by Statkowski » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:19 pm

For the New Haven Railroad, the New York Central merely added a "Y" ahead of the New Haven number. Why "Y" is anybody's guess.
Ex-NYNH&H SS Opr

ExCon90
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:22 pm

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by ExCon90 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:15 pm

I've always heard that it stood for Yankee. That may be just folklore, but I can't think of any other reason for using Y.

Statkowski
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:44 am
Location: Cherry Tree, Pa.

Re: BR&P Service - DuBois to Clearfield

Post by Statkowski » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:57 pm

The actual reason for the "Y" prefix is based on "XYZ".

The first axis, north-south, was "X", which was for Harlem Division trains which ran south into Grand Central.

The second axis, east-west, was "Y", which was for New Haven trains which ran west into Grand Central.

The third axis, other, was "Z", which was for Hudson Division trains which came down the Hudson River, then cut across along the Harlem River to join the line into Grand Central.
Ex-NYNH&H SS Opr

Return to “Baltimore & Ohio/Chesapeake & Ohio/Western Maryland”