SEPTA to Piggyback on NJT MLV III (EMU) Order?

[ExCon90]

It'll be a long time before SEPTA has all high-level platforms. Would there be structural issues in cutting the side sills to provide low-level boarding?

[MACTRAXX]

NPL: As you probably know Metra replaced the entire 70s era Highliner fleet in recent years. The Highliner
cars are of the "gallery" configuration (limited upper level seats) and ran on 1500 VDC power.

Multilevel-type cars with full upper and lower levels would be a better additional fit either as more push-pull
cars or a new EMU essentially representing a Silverliner Six order for SEPTA RRD...MACTRAXX

[93r8g7]

SEPTA will be going ahead with EMU Bi-Level cars from Bombardier, only the SEPTA specs will require max speed of 110mph, as opposed to the slimmed-down NJT model. SEPTA's specs will also need to include transformers that are compatible with both the Reading & Pennsylvania ends of the system, although, the Pennsylvania end will be seeing them more often, particularly the Trenton, Paoli, & Newark Lines.

[93r8g7]

CONFIRMED with a senior official on the state level- the authority will be ordering a step-upped version of the Bombardier Multi-Level Cars. Good move. Granted we do need more single level cars as well, however the SLIV are likely the most reliable cars we have. Perhaps the authority will purchase the Arrows.

[rcthompson04]

Perhaps the authority will purchase the Arrows.

The Arrows are worn out. If SEPTA is interested in buying used rolling stock that needs some work, but could serve a long life, Exo's MR-90s might be a good starting point to start replacing the Silverliner IVs, which are soldiering on but are clearly past their prime.

[Nasadowsk]

SEPTA's specs will also need to include transformers that are compatible with both the Reading & Pennsylvania ends of the system, although, the Pennsylvania end will be seeing them more often, particularly the Trenton, Paoli, & Newark Lines.

This makes no sense, both sides are the same voltage and frequency.

Forget the MR-90s, they're ancient, slow, and can't run on 25Hz, so they'd need new transformers. Their final run will be to Gillette to be turned into razor blades...

[NorthPennLimited]

Where is SEPTA going to get the funds to purchase these new MU’s at $3-$4 million per car?

I thought the Act 89 / Turnpike money runs out in 2021.

If the fleet has about 200 Silverliner IV’s, you’re looking at 600-800 million for a fleet replacement.

I’m doubting the credibility of the “senior state official” that SEPTA is ordering a new MU fleet without the $$ to purchase, or service the debt on a loan that big. The state can’t even service the interest on the money they are borrowing to pay for the State teachers’ pension obligation.

[93r8g7]

Oh dear...

Firstly, SEPTA is part of the State of PA, and has little to no debt, unlike it's peer agencies. All procurements would be funneled through the exhaustive PA State procurement process.
Secondly, these would be procured over a period of time, a number of years, not just appear magically in one bunch, overnight. Perhaps you don't understand how procurements (by reputable agencies like SEPTA, as opposed to debted agencies such as NJT, MTA) work?

Teacher pensions are a different matter entirely, and there are many reasons pensions are no longer a thing. Principal among them, cost.

[MattW]

It sounds like they're going to need a much bigger transformer and more electrical gear, with the seats and room that'll presumably be displacing, wouldn't it be easier at this point to just stick with locomotives? BiLevel doesn't necessarily mean more capacity when there's more equipment to cram places.

[Head-end View]

MattW, locomotives work better on lines with some distance between stations. Electric MU's work a lot better on a railroad like SEPTA where the stations are very closely spaced on some lines and you need faster acceleration and deceleration to maintain the schedule.

[mcgrath618]

MattW, locomotives work better on lines with some distance between stations. Electric MU's work a lot better on a railroad like SEPTA where the stations are very closely spaced on some lines and you need faster acceleration and deceleration to maintain the schedule.

Considering how heavy these EMUs will be, I doubt the normal benefits of having MU operation will hold true.

[rcthompson04]

MattW, locomotives work better on lines with some distance between stations. Electric MU's work a lot better on a railroad like SEPTA where the stations are very closely spaced on some lines and you need faster acceleration and deceleration to maintain the schedule.

SEPTA showed with its "all day push-pull" experiment that it does not know how to run push-pull equipment on non-express runs. I think that the ACS-64s with 3 Bomber coaches and a control car could be used off peak, but they need to be used in specific areas: Wilmington/Newark line, Trenton line, and Paoli-Thorndale line.

Use them on the earlier or later express runs and pair them with an off-peak run back to the yard. I would keep them off the Reading side except for express runs and deadheading to the yards.

[rcthompson04]

MattW, locomotives work better on lines with some distance between stations. Electric MU's work a lot better on a railroad like SEPTA where the stations are very closely spaced on some lines and you need faster acceleration and deceleration to maintain the schedule.

Considering how heavy these EMUs will be, I doubt the normal benefits of having MU operation will hold true.

Yes the ACS-64s have decent acceleration. When SEPTA was running the all-day push-pull train, it seemed to have more issues tied to touching so many lines throughout the day and crew issues than actual acceleration problems. I suspect if they had assigned it to run consistently on one line it would have done just was well as the EMUs.

[CNJGeep]

The four car train was okay. It didn't really have trouble making the schedule for most of the day, but it was all too easy for delays to cascade if something went wrong. I don't think it's an experiment they'll repeat.

[rcthompson04]

The four car train was okay. It didn't really have trouble making the schedule for most of the day, but it was all too easy for delays to cascade if something went wrong. I don't think it's an experiment they'll repeat.

It should be noted that SEPTA had a hard time running that trainset all day even with EMUs. In one of the last schedule changes, the morning and midday runs were separated from the afternoon and evening runs. I suspect if you ran the 4 car set on the afternoon and evening runs (30th Street to Warminster, Warminster to Thorndale, Thorndale to Doylestown, and Doylestown to Malvern) the performance would be comparable to EMUs.

I think the problem with such an idea is it adds a lot of schedule complexity when we do not have 100% of all engineers trained on the push-pull equipment.