NJT to benefit from economic stimulus??

[Jtgshu]

Waiting -

Look, I totally understand what you are trying to say, and your passion is admirable. More folks like you would get service expanded in South Jersey, as the clammering of folks at least gets those who make decisions to take notice....maybe not do anything right away, but take notice, and that is a feat in itself! (although hasn't worked for MOM folks, at least not yet......)

However, you have to realize, that there are many other pressing needs in the state where scarce money could be much better used for projects. Its just the way the state is developed - there are just more folks up north! NYC is a much bigger city than Philly, and when folks in Philly suburbs commute to NY, that just shows that NY is a bigger draw than Philly. Now thats not to poohpooh Philly, but NY is just bigger, and in turn, has more folks that needs to get there, which is where NJTransit comes in

However, NJT isn't in the business of "seasonal" service - other than Monmouth Park, I cannot think of any other station that is seasonal. There is a seasonal increase in service on the Coast Line, but there is still the ridership to support the line through the off season. There is NO line that is totally seasonal.

If there is that much of a commuter base from Cape May and Wildwood and Cape May county that could support a train line year round, then it should be explored. And NJT hasn't totally written off the CMSL in the future. But to build/rebuild a line (and a lot of miles too boot) just for a few months out of the year of service is a tremendous waste of money.

Lets have a good discussion on expansion of South Jersey service (in another thread) using accurate statements and comments, not just passion and hyperbole. Passion is a necessity, and a reason why most of us are here, but you just can't ignore some realities!

[WaitinginSJ]

Waiting -

Look, I totally understand what you are trying to say, and your passion is admirable. More folks like you would get service expanded in South Jersey, as the clammering of folks at least gets those who make decisions to take notice....maybe not do anything right away, but take notice, and that is a feat in itself! (although hasn't worked for MOM folks, at least not yet......)

However, you have to realize, that there are many other pressing needs in the state where scarce money could be much better used for projects. Its just the way the state is developed - there are just more folks up north! NYC is a much bigger city than Philly, and when folks in Philly suburbs commute to NY, that just shows that NY is a bigger draw than Philly. Now thats not to poohpooh Philly, but NY is just bigger, and in turn, has more folks that needs to get there, which is where NJTransit comes in

However, NJT isn't in the business of "seasonal" service - other than Monmouth Park, I cannot think of any other station that is seasonal. There is a seasonal increase in service on the Coast Line, but there is still the ridership to support the line through the off season. There is NO line that is totally seasonal.

If there is that much of a commuter base from Cape May and Wildwood and Cape May county that could support a train line year round, then it should be explored. And NJT hasn't totally written off the CMSL in the future. But to build/rebuild a line (and a lot of miles too boot) just for a few months out of the year of service is a tremendous waste of money.

Lets have a good discussion on expansion of South Jersey service (in another thread) using accurate statements and comments, not just passion and hyperbole. Passion is a necessity, and a reason why most of us are here, but you just can't ignore some realities!

You know, this time, I think I will agree with you. My comment on seasonal service was not having it run by NJ Transit, but the CMSL, which last I checked didn't have it's own thread/forum. I agree, we should debate this somewhere else and take some time to take a good look at our facts.

[blockline4180]

You know, this time, I think I will agree with you. My comment on seasonal service was not having it run by NJ Transit, but the CMSL, which last I checked didn't have it's own thread/forum. I agree, we should debate this somewhere else and take some time to take a good look at our facts.

I read a while back that NJT does not allow competition or connections to be made by private run passenger railroads since NJT is a gov't run entity..This was a response I got back from NJT when NY&GL expressed interest on running passenger trains into Hoboken via the Lower Boonton line..

I could be wrong, but perhaps CMSL is a different situation. I'm sure CMSL could run a seasonal operation from Richland/Tuckahoe down to Cape May as long as there are no connections made at NJT's Hammonton station...

Fantasy talking: Would be nice if CMSL bought some of stored NJT Comet I's....I'm pretty sure they still have the LV F7's stored down in Tuckahoe..Don't the HEP packages still work?? If CMSLRR wants to expand service then they will probably need more passenger cars and motive power anyway.

All this takes is a lot of money and I don't think Trenton wants to spend it on South Jersey at this time.

[Jtgshu]

yes Block you are correct

There are work issues with another RR running scheduled passenger trains over NJT owned track. A tourist operation is one thing, but a regularly scheduled passenger operation is NJT Rail Ops work.

[PullmanCo]

there are many other pressing needs in the state where scarce money could be much better used for projects

Such as…?

[south jersey trains]

One thought left out is as Cape May is sticking out in the Ocean and hurricanes do and will come up the coast,sometimes in August or September tourist season ,the railroad is a good way to help evaculate the low costal areas.the parkway and Rt 47 would be packed,human lives are at stake.Remember the history channel show when all the world war one vets were working on the Flordia Keys bridges and a monster 5 hurricane trapped them,what did they send to get them out...a train,but sadly most drowned as it was dispatched to late and with terrible results.

[Tom V]

there are many other pressing needs in the state where scarce money could be much better used for projects

Such as…?

Wow where to start:

ARC tunnels
Portal Bridge Replacement
expanded waterfront connection
PATH extension to EWR
HBLRT extension to Tenafly
HBLRT extension to Harmon Cove/Meadowlands sports complex
HBLRT extension down 440
HBLRT extension through Bergen Arches to Secaucus jct
Lackawanna Cut off
West Trenton Line
RVL extension to Phillipsburg, Bethlehem, Allentown
MOM (via Monmouth Jct)
MOM via Red Bank
NYSW to Sparta
West Shore line to Newburgh
Cross county line
Newark Light rail extension to Newark Airport, Port Elizabeth
Newark Light rail extension to Nutley
Union County Light rail
New Brunswick Light rail
Riverline Capitol extension
Riverline extension to West Trenton

All of these are more worthy investments than rail service to Wildwood (population 5,000), Cape May (pop 3,000), or Ocean City (pop 15,000)

[WaitinginSJ]

All of these are more worthy investments than rail service to Wildwood (population 5,000), Cape May (pop 3,000), or Ocean City (pop 15,000)

All of which balloon by about 100,000 to 200,000 more over the summer months. As for the Cut Off, other than Scranton, what major town does it go through that don't already have service? Do I agree that there are other more important projects, yes, just keep this project on one's mind, that's all I"m saying. Heck, even NJ Transit looked into it when they made that map a few years back showing possible extensions. Also, your list forgot anything for South Jersey, such as an extension to Glasboro, Millville, or Mt. Holly. Mind you I understand leaving them out since they are being done by the DRPA, although some of the funding is coming from the same source, our tax dollars.

Edit* Would the Cut Off allow for more P.A. connections to be made in Scranton? (not just allow, but allow them to be created in a reasonable amount of time) If so, then that definitely jumps higher up on the scale.

[lv414]

One thought left out is as Cape May is sticking out in the Ocean and hurricanes do and will come up the coast,sometimes in August or September tourist season ,the railroad is a good way to help evaculate the low costal areas.the parkway and Rt 47 would be packed,human lives are at stake.Remember the history channel show when all the world war one vets were working on the Flordia Keys bridges and a monster 5 hurricane trapped them,what did they send to get them out...a train,but sadly most drowned as it was dispatched to late and with terrible results.

You forgot to mention tidal waves hitting the Cape May area

[Tom V]

One thought left out is as Cape May is sticking out in the Ocean and hurricanes do and will come up the coast,sometimes in August or September tourist season ,the railroad is a good way to help evaculate the low costal areas.the parkway and Rt 47 would be packed,human lives are at stake.Remember the history channel show when all the world war one vets were working on the Flordia Keys bridges and a monster 5 hurricane trapped them,what did they send to get them out...a train,but sadly most drowned as it was dispatched to late and with terrible results.

Please stop digging, this is the worst reasoning yet. The Key West comparison is mute because there was only one way in or out for almost 100 miles and there was poor technology to adequately track the storm, nor was there adequate air service to fly folks out. Please if a hurricane were to hit Cape May there would be a few days notice, take this from someone who was a 17 year old on vacation with my Family at the Harbor Beach Marriott in Fort Lauderdale Florida during Hurricane Andrew in 1992. There was plenty of rail service to Dade/Broward County, but almost everyone drove out. We drove North to Orlando and rode out the storm at one of the Disney Resorts.

[PullmanCo]

Funny you say "worst reasoning yet" in the face of the role trains played in evacuating victims of Hurricane Katrina. Do all your posts consist of either pie-in-the-sky scenarios or ad hominem attacks?

[danny700]

From the Newark Star-Ledger this morning that might benefit from the Economic Stimulus:

Group pushes to restore Flemington to NYC passenger train service
by Mike Frassinelli/The Star-Ledger
Sunday February 22, 2009, 11:46 AM
It's been nearly 50 years since there was daily train service from Flemington to New York.

Many of the tracks in this onetime rail hub, which saw 55 trains come and go in a day, were ripped up to make way for condominiums.

Faced with congestion on Routes 78 and 202, Hunterdon has become the latest northwest New Jersey county to turn to history to solve a present-day dilemma. A task force of influential local community leaders, who nicknamed their group the "traveling circus," are touting the idea of restoring passenger rail service from Flemington to New York City.

"We don't think we're dreamers," said Bob Benjamin, a lifelong resident of the Flemington area who included the town's name in the title of his business, Flemington Furs. "We've got something very special here, something very real, and we will continue to work hard at it."

The group met this month in Somerville with the Raritan Valley Rail Coalition and is scheduled to meet Wednesday with the North Jersey Transportation Planning Authority in Newark.

They envision commuters taking a train from Flemington to Three Bridges to Bound Brook, then to New York.

The group acknowledges that their plan is at least 10 to 12 years away and their proposal is in the caboose, well behind other northwest Jersey plans to restore commuter rail service to Andover in Sussex County and Blairstown and Phillipsburg in Warren County.

The Andover and Blairstown train would eventually head west to Pennsylvania's Pocono Mountains, while the Phillipsburg train would end up in Pennsylvania's Lehigh Valley.

Under the Flemington proposal, a commuter would board a train at a station to be determined, perhaps at Liberty Village, Turntable Junction, Hunterdon Cut Glass or Hunterdon Village.

The train would travel four miles along the Black River and Western line to Three Bridges, then travel 18 miles along new commuter rail tracks next to the Norfolk Southern line, where it would connect to the Raritan Valley Line in Bound Brook.

Benjamin estimates a trip to Manhattan would take about 90 minutes in a bright train, a much easier commute than riding in a crowded bus.

He said the cost estimate is $1 million a mile for the new track along the Norfolk Southern line, for a total of $18 million; $550,000 per mile to upgrade the four miles of Black River and Western track, for a total of $2.2 million; and $20 million for a train station.

The group hopes to secure federal and state money and contributions from the rail lines. Benjamin said the plan makes sense for Flemington because the rail lines and rights-of-way are already in place.

"We envision a county seat with a rail system equal to its great history; a thriving Main Street with a great deal of foot traffic and excitement," Benjamin said. "We see property owners investing in their homes and buildings because of the return in doing so. We see buildings that are in desperate need of repairs being replaced with beautiful new ones. We see increased real estate values and real estate values holding steady during difficult times, because the commuters will want to live and work in a town that has a commuter rail system.

"And we see citizens taking these trains, our trains, to Yankee Stadium, museums, theaters ... concerts and parades. And, of course, we see fewer cars, less pollution and waste of fuel. This is what believe is the future."

He said using commuter trains would make better economic sense than expanding Route 202 and maintaining 15 more miles of cars. But he acknowledged it would take a great deal of effort and political will for the project to progress.

Benjamin said that even though New Jersey has no funds available until after 2011, "What we have to do is position ourselves so that we are there when funds do become available."

"The President Obama plan for creating jobs is all about rebuilding infrastructures," Benjamin said. "In a populous state like New Jersey, that means investing in rail."
The Flemington group has the support of Hunterdon County Freeholder Matthew Holt.

"We in the state of New Jersey have got to recognize that transportation infrastructure is not solely about roads and bridges," Holt said.

He said 10 or 20 years ago, there was a mass population of drivers from Pennsylvania traveling to New York City. Today, he said, only about 6 percent that cross the border end up in New York City and close to 50 percent go to Hunterdon, Somerset, Morris or Mercer counties.

"Right now, what does not exist is the ability for anybody on the western side of the state to do anything but get in their cars," Holt said. "And long range, that costs us money in roads and bridges and maintenance."

Somerset County Freeholder Peter S. Palmer, who chairs the Raritan Valley Rail Coalition's board of trustees, said that without the ability to build new highways or railroads, the way to go is to better utilize existing rights-of-way.

"So almost any of these (passenger rail) ideas will make more and more sense as time goes by," Palmer said.

New Jersey Department of Transportation Commissioner Stephen Dilts said the department would be open to hearing more about the Flemington passenger service proposal.

But he cautioned, "It's early. There are a lot of coordination issues that need to be worked out before it becomes anything more than a concept."

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/post_63.html

[WaitinginSJ]

Glad to hear it!!

[south jersey trains]

Tom ,I hope all your rail plans you listed come true soon,not only would it be great for the people of north jersey,but all here that like trains and im sure they are good projects,but also on another note,if our projects in south jersey have to wait till all of these projects are completed,well the people here in south jersey can read about our railroads projects being completed while were on the weekend space shuttle to Mars in 2109.

[Tom V]

Funny you say "worst reasoning yet" in the face of the role trains played in evacuating victims of Hurricane Katrina. Do all your posts consist of either pie-in-the-sky scenarios or ad hominem attacks?

The demographics of New Orleans vs Cape May county are almost polar opposites. One is a large city with a mostly minority population which is heavily dependent on public transportation, the other is mostly white where almost all adults own vehicles and public transportation is nearly non existent. Trust me I was in Miami during Hurricane Andrew, no one was making a break for the Tri-Rail or Amtrak. Folks were packing the family with their pets into their cars and driving North.

If their was an imminent threat to the South shore of New Jersey the best thing to do would not be to try and muster NJ Transit rail equipment in to pick people up, the best thing would be to turn the South Bound lanes to North bound, thus allowing for four lanes of traffic out of the area. Even during the busiest period it would not take more than a day to complete a mandatory evacuation. And unlike the 1800s storm tracking can pin point landfall to the exact minute, so hurricanes that surprised places like Galveston or Key West near the turn of the 20th century is not realistic.