Metro-North Hudson Line Penn Station Access via Empire Conne

[Erie-Lackawanna]

Replacing rail is a normal maintenance item that does not require any changes in the right of way or other infrastructure. There is nothing to be gained by pairing up the disparate, unrelated tasks associated with routine rail replacement and the necessary infrastructure upgrades to support MNR Hudson Line operations into Penn Station.

Folks, dreams aside, Hudson Line Penn service will not happen until Gateway is complete and a major increase in track/platform capacity in Penn proper has been completed. The current Penn Station configuration cannot support Hudson Line service to Penn.

Jim

[EuroStar]

No slots are Penn will be transferred from LIRR to NJT. NJT cannot really get more trains through the tunnels, so more slots at the platforms are of no use for them. If Cuomo is serious about building Penn South, which he might not be, there will be more service to Penn from the Hudson Line than just 2-3 diesel sets. For all the money to be spent on Penn South the governor will need to show benefits to New York residents, not just a new shiny station for Amtrak and NJT. One of the benefits he will use is service from the Hudson Line. He will need more than that to build Penn South, but Hudson Line service to Penn will be included in the package of benefits used to sell the Penn South project to New Yorkers.

[Backshophoss]

Cuomo is meddling too much with the MTA,how many more staff leave due to his meddling?
Hudson line access is a" back burner" project.Gateway needs to be done first,then the original(Hudson River) tubes need to be rebuilt.
New Haven access is doable,not a budget buster,but ESA needs to be done and online first.
At this point,3rd rail from DV is NOT cost effective!!!!! A small pool of dual modes,rigged for LIRR 3rd rail is the best cost effective option NOW!!!

[EuroStar]

At this point,3rd rail from DV is NOT cost effective!

I do not disagree that it is not cost effective, but cost effective or not the politics of Penn South will require it if Cuomo is serious about building it, which he probably is not. In best of cases he will need another 2 terms as governor before the first shovel is in the ground and then another 3 terms to see it completed.

[SeanW]

There's probably a good reason why this would not work BUT:

How about if diesel trains were run to Penn on a through running basis. For example:

Diesel train starts in Danbury, makes local stops to South Norwalk. Stops in Stamford, then the Bronx stops planned for in New Haven-Penn access.
Then at Penn the train continues through the Empire connector to Croton-Harmon and makes local stops to Poughkeepsie? Then the same in reverse, Poughkeepsie-Harmon-Penn-Bronx-Stamford-Danbury.

This way, you'd only need one train path through Penn for two services: One Connecticut/Bronx to Penn and the other Penn to Poughkeepsie.]

Or is Penn Station too maxed out even for that?

[Backshophoss]

Short answer,YES! Penn is beyond maxed out,even with dual mode locos,will not happen.

[Rockingham Racer]

Short answer,YES! Penn is beyond maxed out,even with dual mode locos,will not happen.

Curious here. How much of the "maxed out" reality is due to trains waiting to turn back or go to SSY , as opposed to ones that would through? IOW, if more trains ran through, would that increase capacity? And if so, by how much?

[Ridgefielder]

Short answer,YES! Penn is beyond maxed out,even with dual mode locos,will not happen.

Curious here. How much of the "maxed out" reality is due to trains waiting to turn back or go to SSY , as opposed to ones that would through? IOW, if more trains ran through, would that increase capacity? And if so, by how much?

I believe Penn is operating at something like 200% of designed capacity. It's not trains waiting to turn, it's the sheer *number* of trains.

Remember, everything below street level at Penn-- tracks, platforms, stairs-- is the original 1905 station.

Back before the First World War, when the PRR designed the NY Tunnels & Terminals extension, they had no intention of ever operating commuter trains through the North River tubes. All their NJ commuter service terminated at the Exchange Place terminal in Jersey City for PATH (then the Hudson & Manhattan Railway, a PRR subsidiary) and ferry connections to Manhattan. And, of course, all the CNJ and DL&W commuter services terminated at their own terminals in JC and Hoboken, respectively.

Fast forward to today, and NJT is trying to cram commuter trains off the legacy CNJ, DL&W and PRR into a station that wasn't designed to handle them. There is no room for the Hudson Division, period.

[njtmnrrbuff]

For MNR Hudson Line trains to run to NYP by way of the Westside Connection, there just isn't much in the way of commercial development to warrant that to happen. Plus people living on the Westside in Upper Manhattan are very close to multiple subway routes that could bring them down to the Westside on a normal day-the A train from 125th St to 34th Street when it is following its normal stop pattern takes 15 minutes. When you take the 1 train from 125th Street and then switch to the 2 or the 3 train at 96th Street when both are running their regular express patterns in Manhattan, you can probably be at 34th St-Penn Station in about 15 minutes. It's not unusual for people who are heading to places on the West Side of Midtown or vice versa from the Hudson Line to get off at Marble Hill and then take the 1 train all the way down or do the 1 to 96th St and switch to the 2 or the 3. I have done that many times.

[GirlOnTheTrain]

Or you could just stay on the 1 and not waste your time changing to the "express" which is not always faster, ESPECIALLY at rush hour.

[njtmnrrbuff]

Yes, staying on the 1 train all the way to Midtown. On weekends, it’s not unusual for the 2 and 3 trains to be turned into a local due to track work.

[EuroStar]

The proposed stations in Manhattan (59th Street and 125th Street) were never meant for people in Manhattan taking the train to Penn. They were meant as drop-off points for suburban commuters coming from up north. Columbus circle and Columbia University are minor job centers in Manhattan.

[Jeff Smith]

Westchester wants Hudson Line service to Penn: PIX11

Westchester officials call for expanded train service on Metro-North
...
Westchester County Executive George Latimer, Yonkers Mayor Mike Spano and others are demanding a study be done to explore the possibility of adding direct service from Yonkers to Penn Station.

The Hudson Line’s ridership rose 56.7% from 2021 with around 3.6 million more rides, according to MTA statistics.
...

[Jeff Smith]

More meat in this article: Patch.com

Westchester Officials Make Case For Hudson Line Penn Station Service

In a letter to the MTA, the county executive called for a study to have the Hudson Line have direct "one seat access" to Penn Station.
...
Westchester County Executive George Latimer called the move a proactive step to address the transportation needs of the region. Latimer made his case in a letter addressed to the Chief Executive Officer of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) Janno Lieber, calling for a study to have the Hudson Line have direct "one seat" access to Manhattan's Penn Station.
...
Expressing support for the progress made with West Side Access on the New Haven Line, which links Metro-North’s New Haven Line service with four new Bronx Stations into Manhattan’s Penn Station on the West Side, Latimer said it is time for a parallel initiative on the Hudson River side of Metro-North.
...
Latimer is asking the MTA to undertake a comprehensive study to evaluate the feasibility and potential benefits of establishing West Side Access from Westchester and the Bronx on the Hudson Line to Penn Station. The existing Amtrak line in the corridor presents an opportunity to leverage the infrastructure for the benefit of the communities along the Hudson River, proponents say.
...

[NaugyRR]

I know there are several obstacles that would prevent this, but I think it would be cool if Metro-North and Amtrak traded a couple slots so a couple Empire trains could run to GCT and some Metro-North trains run to NYP in exchange. Pure foamer fantasy, but there are times I would rather take Amtrak to GCT.