WMATA to study extension to National Harbor

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What to do about National Harbor?

Post by mtuandrew » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:25 am

From the "How are WMATA's trains moved to different lines?" thread:
Sand Box John wrote:To me it make more sense to serve National Harbor from a branch off the F route south of Congress Heights or serve it from an extension of DC Anacostia Streetcar line once DC DOT figures out how they are going to connect it to the rest of their planed network.
Yes on either, particularly the Anacostia Streetcar. There is already a fair amount of traffic on the E & F routes, and it wouldn't help timing to create a situation at L'Enfant akin to the Blue-Orange-Silver mess at Rosslyn.

In the meantime, Metro could run an express bus, King Street - Eisenhower - National Harbor - the Outlets, and another south from Anacostia through JB Anacostia-Bolling. These are the types of services that VA, MD, or DC wouldn't fund on their own.

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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by Sand Box John » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:00 pm

"mtuandrew"
Yes on either, particularly the Anacostia Streetcar. There is already a fair amount of traffic on the E & F routes, and it wouldn't help timing to create a situation at L'Enfant akin to the Blue-Orange-Silver mess at Rosslyn.


The E and F routes are a kin to the east ends of Blue and Orange line as in they have fewer boarding then the west ends of those lines. The cheaper option is an extension of the DC Street car. Mined you such an schema would required Maryland and Prince George's County to make a deal with the District of Columbia.
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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by mtuandrew » Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:45 pm

Sand Box John wrote:...The cheaper option is an extension of the DC Street car. Mined you such an schema would required Maryland and Prince George's County to make a deal with the District of Columbia.
Well, yes, I agree. Maryland and PG County would need to be involved, as would the Army Corps of Engineers and the FHWA. The development company (Peterson Companies?) also has a responsibility to contribute to any extension past JB Anacostia-Bolling.

At least there's already an off-highway ROW between Anacostia Station and the DC Sewage Treatment Plant. I don't know if CSX, CSAO, the District, or the US Government owns it, but it is clear, it has rails and is laying fallow. Beyond that, I think the best compromise route would go from the railroad ROW up Chesapeake Street to South Capitol St. SE, and down Capitol and Indian Head Highway to Tanger Outlets and National Harbor. Maybe you could go further down through JBAB, take a left at Cooley Street, go under I-295 and crawl up the hill via Shepherd Pkwy, Blue Plains Dr, and Galveston Street to South Capitol.

You could choose to go directly to the Harbor via I-295 right-of-way, but that involves bridging Oxon Creek and the Beltway and plowing through Oxon Cove Park & Oxon Hill Farm. The Army Corps of Engineers, PG Parks, National Parks Service, and Sierra Club wouldn't care for that at all, and you miss the entire Capitol Street corridor of riders.

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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by Sand Box John » Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:18 pm

mtuandrew"
At least there's already an off-highway ROW between Anacostia Station and the DC Sewage Treatment Plant. I don't know if CSX, CSAO, the District, or the US Government owns it, but it is clear, it has rails and is laying fallow. Beyond that, I think the best compromise route would go from the railroad ROW up Chesapeake Street to South Capitol St. SE, and down Capitol and Indian Head Highway to Tanger Outlets and National Harbor.


The portion of the Anacostia Streetcar line south of Firth Stirling Avenue doesn't make use of the CSX right of way and would not have to further south to where South Capitol pass under DC-295.

Maybe you could go further down through JBAB, take a left at Cooley Street, go under I-295 and crawl up the hill via Shepherd Pkwy, Blue Plains Dr, and Galveston Street to South Capitol.

You could choose to go directly to the Harbor via I-295 right-of-way, but that involves bridging Oxon Creek and the Beltway and plowing through Oxon Cove Park & Oxon Hill Farm. The Army Corps of Engineers, PG Parks, National Parks Service, and Sierra Club wouldn't care for that at all, and you miss the entire Capitol Street corridor of riders.


The South Capitol Street and Indian Head Highway route would capture more boardings traveling in directions other then National Harbor.
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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by mtuandrew » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:41 pm

Sand Box John wrote:The portion of the Anacostia Streetcar line south of Firth Stirling Avenue doesn't make use of the CSX right of way and would not have to further south to where South Capitol pass under DC-295.
Oh, I see - I didn't realize that was already part of the existing plan. In that case, it certainly makes sense to use the Capitol Street right-of-way, or at least the parallel CSX right-of-way until they diverge at about Boundary Drive (which also keeps the Streetcar from having to go through base security.) That also makes it easy to continue using Capitol Street to the south.
Sand Box John wrote:The South Capitol Street and Indian Head Highway route would capture more boardings traveling in directions other then National Harbor.
I'm not sure I follow - are you saying that it's a good thing that it will capture more boardings, or that this is an example of the proposal not doing its job? Either way, I think it makes sense to use Capitol/Indian Head, and to put a big old park and ride at the south end.

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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by Sand Box John » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:01 am

"mtuandrew"
I'm not sure I follow - are you saying that it's a good thing that it will capture more boardings, or that this is an example of the proposal not doing its job? Either way, I think it makes sense to use Capitol/Indian Head, and to put a big old park and ride at the south end.


Fix route public transit is typically routed along paths that will generate the greatest number of boarding at the lowest cost. The South Capitol Street, Indian Head Highway route will do that better then a DC / MD-295 route.
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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by mtuandrew » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:39 am

Sand Box John wrote:Fix route public transit is typically routed along paths that will generate the greatest number of boarding at the lowest cost. The South Capitol Street, Indian Head Highway route will do that better then a DC / MD-295 route.
Alright, I think I see what you're saying. I agree that an Anacostia - JBAB - Capitol/Indian Head - National Harbor route would produce the highest ridership and lowest cost. Additionally, it provides the lowest need for environmental permitting.

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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by YamaOfParadise » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:19 pm

There's another facet of this: if National Harbor wants to be served by rapid transit. After going there for several years annually for cons @ the Gaylord, my impression of the area is that it is intentionally designed to keep people staying there in National Harbor so that you spend more money there.
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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by mtuandrew » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:36 pm

YamaOfParadise wrote:There's another facet of this: if National Harbor wants to be served by rapid transit. After going there for several years annually for cons @ the Gaylord, my impression of the area is that it is intentionally designed to keep people staying there in National Harbor so that you spend more money there.
Of course, I agree. I have a feeling this would be best marketed for daily visitors to National Harbor itself, rather than the Outlets and the Convention Center, and to employees of both. It'd also be a very convenient place to pick up park-and-ride customers from down Indian Head Highway.

In other words, the transit would be directed to carless visitors from DC to the Harbor, people staying in hotels at the Harbor who want to visit DC, employees of the National Harbor and JBAB complexes, and park-and-ride commuters frustrated with I-295. I think that's a good number of people, and a good enough reason for National Harbor to want transit to their facilities - even if someone doesn't stay for long, that person is still someone who wouldn't otherwise patronize their stores, and it shouldn't much affect the multi-day visitors or big shoppers.

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Re: What to do about National Harbor?

Post by farecard » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:26 am

YamaOfParadise wrote:There's another facet of this: if National Harbor wants to be served by rapid transit. After going there for several years annually for cons @ the Gaylord, my impression of the area is that it is intentionally designed to keep people staying there in National Harbor so that you spend more money there.
DING DING DING

The cluephone rang, and it was Yama on the other end. The whole point of a "destination resort" is to trap the marks there and relieve them of their money. The last thing the management wants is ready access to alternatives for food and entertainment.

Of course, there are 100's of minimum wage workers, but they are best controlled with a company-owned shuttle bus.

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WMATA to study extension to National Harbor

Post by YOLO » Tue May 14, 2019 10:40 pm

https://www.bizjournals.com/washington/ ... study.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: WMATA to study extension to National Harbor

Post by Sand Box John » Wed May 15, 2019 7:14 am

The part that says ". . . and examine the feasibility of putting Metro tracks on the drawbridge . . ." is kind of negated by the part that says ". . . The $2.5 billion Wilson Bridge was designed to handle heavy rail."

The big question is how and where the branch would connect to the existing C and or J routes and what effects would it have on the service into the urban core by the existing Blue and Yellow lines.
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Re: WMATA to study extension to National Harbor

Post by mtuandrew » Wed May 15, 2019 8:38 am

Moderator Note: merged two related topics.

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Re: WMATA to study extension to National Harbor

Post by njt/mnrrbuff » Sat May 18, 2019 8:58 am

Unless if there was a suburb to suburb Metro route that doesn't serve the District, I don't think there is any need to extend any of the existing lines across the Potomac. That is just me. It looks like probably the best solution is just make dedicated bus lanes on the Wilson Bridge and have frequent express bus service serve both the Eisenhower Ave and King St Metro Station.

The Metro system is probably at capacity in many areas and where the Blue and Yellow Lines overlap in VA is no exception.

On other forum pages, I think I saw somebody mention extend the Green Line from Branch Ave. That is not a good idea because being that Branch Ave Station is a bit to the northeast of National Harbor, the tracks would continue to the southwest of Branch Ave adding more travel time than needed to National Harbor.

If rail were to go to National Harbor and if it can be done, I would say make it branch off of the Green Line maybe around Congress Heights Station and run on a brand new set of tracks serving places like Oxon Hill.

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Re: WMATA to study extension to National Harbor

Post by STrRedWolf » Sun May 19, 2019 11:07 am

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:Unless if there was a suburb to suburb Metro route that doesn't serve the District, I don't think there is any need to extend any of the existing lines across the Potomac. That is just me. It looks like probably the best solution is just make dedicated bus lanes on the Wilson Bridge and have frequent express bus service serve both the Eisenhower Ave and King St Metro Station.

The Metro system is probably at capacity in many areas and where the Blue and Yellow Lines overlap in VA is no exception.

On other forum pages, I think I saw somebody mention extend the Green Line from Branch Ave. That is not a good idea because being that Branch Ave Station is a bit to the northeast of National Harbor, the tracks would continue to the southwest of Branch Ave adding more travel time than needed to National Harbor.

If rail were to go to National Harbor and if it can be done, I would say make it branch off of the Green Line maybe around Congress Heights Station and run on a brand new set of tracks serving places like Oxon Hill.
Extend that idea a bit more, and consider the Blue Line and early plans on rerouting that:
  • Phase 1: Oxford Hill to Congress Heights. Tunnel from Congress Heights to Southern Ave SE, then follow that south-west to 210. Keep tunneling under 210 heading south, popping out just north of the Capitol Beltway and connecting with the Oxon Hill Park & Ride. Continue over Indian Head Highway to Old Fort Road, your terminus. Stops will be (possible) Forrest Heights, Oxon Hill/National Harbor, Old Fort Road.
  • Phase 2: Rebuild Rosslyn as a proper Blue transfer point, and extend to U Street, with provision for tracks under U Street. Stops are Rosslyn (transfer Silver/Orange), Georgetown, Adams Morgan, and U Street.
  • Phase 3: Tunnel U-Street down Florida Ave, under the Red Line to Union Station, then south to Navy Yard where it will connect to the Green Line. Stops will be U-Street, NoMa, Union Station, Capitol South, Navy Yard.
Thus, the Blue Line will have the following stops: Franconia-Springfield, Van Dorn, King Street/Old Town, Braddock Rd, Regan National, Crystal City, Pentagon City, Pentagon, Arlington Cemetary, Rosslyn, Georgetown, Adams Morgan, U Street, NoMa, Union Station, Capitol South, Navy Yard-Ballpark, Anacostia, Congress Heights, Forrest Heights, Oxon Hill/National Harbor, Old Fort Road.

Downside: Expensive? Yeah. All that tunneling! Plus the route goes quite near Congress.

Upside: Direct access to Union for Congress and Navy Yard, Blue Line gets more frequency back, and does not try to mix three lines on one set of track.
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