Does MARC have a power problem brewing on the Penn Line?

[TheOneKEA]

Now that the MARC has been running weekend service for 13 months, it is apparent to me that the service is fully established and isn't going to lack for patronage anytime soon. I've noticed that the consists are getting longer and heavier and that there is greater use of double-headed MP36 power on the Penn Line weekend services. To date, I haven't seen a single weekend service with an HHP-8 or am AEM-7 on the front, and some of the consists are heavy enough that even a pair of MP36's struggle to get the train started after some station stops.

I have seen other posts on the forum that have discussed the MP36's "rock and a hard place" gearing problems and subsequent inefficiency, and other posts which suggest that the MTA will have to ditch its electric locos once the ACS-64s are fully fixed, broken in and working well on the mainline Amtrak services. With all of this in mind, is MARC going to find itself in an uncomfortable position when its electrics are gone and it is double-heading the majority of its longest and heaviest Penn Line services? Is it going to start getting the "stink eye" from Amtrak if the commuter services begin to delay the Acela Express and Regionals?

I look forward to being educated on this topic, especially because I don't know much about how MARC and Amtrak set the operating timetable for the former's services.

[Backshophoss]

The last "working" Hippo's on Amtrak,were "stored" as part supplies for the MARC Hippo's.
For whatever internal reasons,MARC has moved away from using their motors on the NEC.

[ThirdRail7]

MARC continues to use its AEM-7s and HHP-8s on the NEC. They don't use them on weekends because the service originates/terminates at Martins, which isn't electrified. I doubt they'll strip the Amtrak engines for parts since they are under lease until the next decade. If they Amtrak buys out the lease, I'm still loathe to believe MARC will support the electrics unless they have a dramatic change of heart. This is because they have ordered 10 diesels to replace them.

That being said, I think this will cause an issue up the road as you indicated. As you mentioned, the trains are getting heavier and longer. That may work on the Camden and the Brunswick lines, but the Penn line is abusive. These engines weren't really made to spend the entire day in run , attempting to achieve 90mph on the undulating terrain between WAS-PVL.

Eventually, it will become a bigger issue as the engines age.

[twropr]

How many cars does a typical weekend Penn Line train have?
How many cars do some of the longer PL trains have during the week?
Andy

[TheOneKEA]

MARC continues to use its AEM-7s and HHP-8s on the NEC. They don't use them on weekends because the service originates/terminates at Martins, which isn't electrified. I doubt they'll strip the Amtrak engines for parts since they are under lease until the next decade. If they Amtrak buys out the lease, I'm still loathe to believe MARC will support the electrics unless they have a dramatic change of heart. This is because they have ordered 10 diesels to replace them.

That being said, I think this will cause an issue up the road as you indicated. As you mentioned, the trains are getting heavier and longer. That may work on the Camden and the Brunswick lines, but the Penn line is abusive. These engines weren't really made to spend the entire day in run , attempting to achieve 90mph on the undulating terrain between WAS-PVL.

Eventually, it will become a bigger issue as the engines age.

I like the way you worded it. Running flat out at top notch on an all-stations train with four or five (or six) bi-levels can't be good for those diesel locomotives, short-term or long-term.

If MARC does hang on to their electric locomotives, what are the chances that they will seriously consider electrifying Martins Yard to the minimum standard needed to cut off and run around an electric? Or is that not realistic?

How many cars does a typical weekend Penn Line train have?
How many cars do some of the longer PL trains have during the week?
Andy

The typical weekend train has three bi-level cars and a single-level car. Some consists have a single-level cab car and some have a bi-level cab car. Some services have the single-level bike car in the consist. haven't yet seen a weekend train with more than six cars overall, while the longest weekday train I've seen has nine bi-levels.

My personal experience suggests that the Saturday northbound departures after 4:10pm will be extended soon with more cars, because those trains load a lot of people at Union Station, and not a lot of people get off south of BWI. My personal experience also suggests that the Saturday morning southbound departures from Baltimore will also be extended soon.

[realtype]

The amazing thing is that the retired GP40WH-2s (which dated back to the 1960's) managed to push/pull 6-bilevel car trains at 100mph on the NEC without double-heading.

[TheOneKEA]

The amazing thing is that the retired GP40WH-2s (which dated back to the 1960's) managed to push/pull 6-bilevel car trains at 100mph on the NEC without double-heading.

The magic of gearing, I guess.

I contacted the MTA and was informed that they use the diesel locomotives for two reasons:
- Most of the service starts at Martins Yard, which isn't electrified (not surprising).
- MARC wants to avoid stranded trains due to loss of catenary power or catenary failure.

I was told however that the 400-series weekend services do start from Baltimore Penn (which suggests that they could be electric) and that there is superficial discussion about electrifying Martins Yard.

[dt_rt40]

"MARC wants to avoid stranded trains due to loss of catenary power or catenary failure."

That's a bit ludicrous. The NEC is going to be so operationally hobbled by a catenary failure that MARC trains are going to be immobilized anyhow. It's probably equally as uncommon for there to be an outright signaling system failure, which stops all trains, period. Yes, yes, I know there was that one time. "That one time" isn't a reason for going back to the technological stone age. My cell phone wasn't working after the 2011 earthquake. I didn't decide never to rely on a cell phone again.

The real reason is the same as any capital expenditure/quality of service tradeoff issues. Electric locomotives were of greatest benefit to people north of Baltimore, and they obviously now think this (admittedly small) group of people was already getting way too good a ride. Hence, for example, the end of Amtrak weekend cross-honorings with the state of weekend service. LIve in Aberdeen, want to go to DC on the weekends? Get used to driving to Baltimore, hon. Diesel probably has a lower initial cost for the BAL-WAS service, and can be interchanged with the other routes. (though, again, maybe not if you're having to buy 2 MP-36s to do the work of one electric motor) Given what I'm finding to be the incredibly poor state of public administration in MD - which as a resident I've come to realize is a very corrupt state, on either side of the aisle, in spite of its reputation to the contrary - it is seeming more like a small miracle and historical anomaly that they ever had the foresight to buy any electric locomotives at all. Or that they had the very comfortable Kawasaki cars instead of some lesser piece of junk. There was a apparently a "perfect storm" of correct MARC planning in the mid 90s...probably never to happen again. Maybe they had a administrator for a while from a northeastern state, with experience running a real commuter rail system. I don't know...no need to appoint myself MARC historian, the issue is purely academic as they say. With a cost cutting R in the governor's office, I'm now just praying that the weekend service survives, whether hauled by hideous, slow diesels or not. It doesn't benefit me, but it makes the area seem more like a first world country. When I lived in Scotland in the mid 1990s, there were trains back and forth between Glasgow and Edinburgh all weekend, at all hours. Electric ones, of course!

[ThirdRail7]

"MARC wants to avoid stranded trains due to loss of catenary power or catenary failure."

That's a bit ludicrous. The NEC is going to be so operationally hobbled by a catenary failure that MARC trains are going to be immobilized anyhow. It's probably equally as uncommon for there to be an outright signaling system failure, which stops all trains, period. Yes, yes, I know there was that one time. "That one time" isn't a reason for going back to the technological stone age. My cell phone wasn't working after the 2011 earthquake. I didn't decide never to rely on a cell phone again.

During the major disruption yesterday, MARC diesel service on the Penn Line soldiered on while there was a solid A/C hold in effect. There is something to be said for diesels and operating flexibility.

The real reason is the same as any capital expenditure/quality of service tradeoff issues. Electric locomotives were of greatest benefit to people north of Baltimore, and they obviously now think this (admittedly small) group of people was already getting way too good a ride. Hence, for example, the end of Amtrak weekend cross-honorings with the state of weekend service. LIve in Aberdeen, want to go to DC on the weekends? Get used to driving to Baltimore, hon. Diesel probably has a lower initial cost for the BAL-WAS service, and can be interchanged with the other routes. (though, again, maybe not if you're having to buy 2 MP-36s to do the work of one electric motor) Given what I'm finding to be the incredibly poor state of public administration in MD - which as a resident I've come to realize is a very corrupt state, on either side of the aisle, in spite of its reputation to the contrary - it is seeming more like a small miracle and historical anomaly that they ever had the foresight to buy any electric locomotives at all. Or that they had the very comfortable Kawasaki cars instead of some lesser piece of junk. There was a apparently a "perfect storm" of correct MARC planning in the mid 90s...probably never to happen again. Maybe they had a administrator for a while from a northeastern state, with experience running a real commuter rail system. I don't know...no need to appoint myself MARC historian, the issue is purely academic as they say. With a cost cutting R in the governor's office, I'm now just praying that the weekend service survives, whether hauled by hideous, slow diesels or not. It doesn't benefit me, but it makes the area seem more like a first world country. When I lived in Scotland in the mid 1990s, there were trains back and forth between Glasgow and Edinburgh all weekend, at all hours. Electric ones, of course!

Once they upgraded 1 track from Carroll to Grove, electric locomotives benefited most MARC riders. The problem is the commingled service. It just doesn't really justify a specialty fleet of costly locomotives.

[dt_rt40]

"The problem is the commingled service."

However as I pointed out, commingling traction to provide superior service on the Penn line was somehow a good enough idea for last 20 years. Not anymore.
Any other first world country would be thinking "we've got to get the Brunswick and Camden lines electrified, so we can run a 100% electric fleet". But, this isn't any other first world country.

[dowlingm]

If MARC electrifies further that gives them a problem through-running through onto VRE, no?

[dt_rt40]

Nothing to lose sleep over...as the run-through, realistically speaking, is almost as pie-in-the-sky as electrifying the Camden and Brunswick lines. Have you seen this: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/pos ... l-service/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I haven't even ridden regularly in over 3 years, but as a MARC commuter, Union Station struck me as barely able to handle the current level of traffic and complexity. Having to tie up K interlocking with additional moves of MARC trains to Virginia or VRE trains to the Brunswick line seems unworkable. And don't forget Amtrak wants to greatly increase the profitable "high speed" service - i.e. Acela or whatever Acela 2.0 is - so they are loathe to bottleneck the final arrival point further. As it was even the morning regional that typically carries MARC passengers had to use a low platform because the high ones were all tied up in the morning.

[TheOneKEA]

There is also the fact that a push-pull configuration is always going to beat up a locomotive faster than if the locomotive had to run around the consist after arrival. That's why a I believe the MTA is going to start suffering from more problems like the blowup with #13 several weeks ago.

[dowlingm]

There is also the fact that a push-pull configuration is always going to beat up a locomotive faster than if the locomotive had to run around the consist after arrival. That's why a I believe the MTA is going to start suffering from more problems like the blowup with #13 several weeks ago.

what's all that running around going to do for consist dwell time though?

[TheOneKEA]

There is also the fact that a push-pull configuration is always going to beat up a locomotive faster than if the locomotive had to run around the consist after arrival. That's why a I believe the MTA is going to start suffering from more problems like the blowup with #13 several weeks ago.

what's all that running around going to do for consist dwell time though?

Ruin dwell times at the termini and tie up limited terminal capacity. That's why the MTA is going to have to strike a very delicate balance between high utilization of their diesel fleet and low utilization for maintenance and repairs. I suspect this is one of the reasons why MTA bought 10 more diesel locomotives.