The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Discussion of the past and present operations of the Long Island Rail Road.

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MNCRR9000
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Location: Syosset,NY

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by MNCRR9000 »

SRich wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:22 am
PeteJP wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:21 pm
Hello I am just joining this group.

A few questions:
Are there any tracks plans available for this project? I am updating my train dispatcher program.

Also will this be dispatched from PSCC or Jamaica?
Logically seen from the PSCC, since harold interlocking is also controlled from it and ESA connect to Harold
I was reading a article about the completion of the Mid Day Storage yard, I’ll have to see if I can find it, it mentioned that the tracks will be controlled from a dispatcher located in Grand Central so sounds like ESA may have its own OCC.

AHunter3
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Joined: Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:19 pm

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by AHunter3 »

I see lots of progress at Jamaica Station on the new south end platform. It looks done. One odd thing: the track numbers are posted on the columns now and they're not 9 and 10 as I'd expect but 11 and 12. WTF?

workextra
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by workextra »

Track 9, is that short track between track 8 and track 10
There is a discrepancy in the numbering but I’m not getting into on this forum.

Patch Hog
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by Patch Hog »

AHunter3 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:43 am
I see lots of progress at Jamaica Station on the new south end platform. It looks done. One odd thing: the track numbers are posted on the columns now and they're not 9 and 10 as I'd expect but 11 and 12. WTF?
9 and 10 are between 8 and 11 - they just don’t have a platform. They will be used for freight, express and equipment trains.

jamestrains1
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Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:03 pm

ESA LIRR operating policy

Post by jamestrains1 »

It appears as though the LIRR's terminal at Grand Central will NOT operate 24/7. It will shut down each night similar to how the terminal for Metro-North at Grand Central currently operates.
MTA LIRR East Side Access
Technical Memorandum Assessing Design Changes:
LIRR Concourse and Street Entrances

http://web.mta.info/capital/esa_docs/ESA%20TM4.pdf
30 Jul 2009
see pdf pg. 35
Image

"IV. GCT OPERATING POLICY
MTA has decided that LIRR operations in GCT will be consistent with MNR’s
operations, which currently do not provide 24 hour service, seven days per week. This
decision has no impact on the conclusions or mitigation measures presented in the FEIS,
since the FEIS focuses on worst-case analyses during peak hours and makes no mention
of a nighttime operating policy. This decision will not adversely affect LIRR service;
Penn Station will continue to provide nighttime service. "

User avatar
SRich
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by SRich »

MNCRR9000 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:41 am
SRich wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:22 am
PeteJP wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:21 pm
Hello I am just joining this group.

A few questions:
Are there any tracks plans available for this project? I am updating my train dispatcher program.

Also will this be dispatched from PSCC or Jamaica?
Logically seen from the PSCC, since harold interlocking is also controlled from it and ESA connect to Harold
I was reading a article about the completion of the Mid Day Storage yard, I’ll have to see if I can find it, it mentioned that the tracks will be controlled from a dispatcher located in Grand Central so sounds like ESA may have its own OCC.
Quite apart, because mid day storage yard is connected to a amtrak loop that is controlled by PSCC.
Greetings from the Netherlands

EuroStar
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Location: Middle of Nowhere

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by EuroStar »

The Grand Central portion of ESA is not that complex or large to clearly require its own OCC. Given the extra costs of a new OCC, I would certainly expect all dispatching functions for ESA to be added to new personnel at the existing locations, but I do not have first hand knowledge of what is planned.

gamer4616
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:49 pm

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by gamer4616 »

AHunter3 wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:43 am
I see lots of progress at Jamaica Station on the new south end platform. It looks done. One odd thing: the track numbers are posted on the columns now and they're not 9 and 10 as I'd expect but 11 and 12. WTF?
Platform F, between tracks 11 and 12 will open Friday 1/31/20 at 1201am. From what's written, only 11 track will be in use for trains. 12 track still has more work to be done.

Backshophoss
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by Backshophoss »

The LIRR GCT "Bunker Level" will be in PSCC controlled. Might have it's own desk at PSCC.





'


'
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!

photobug56
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by photobug56 »

Some pieces of history and issues re ESA.

Back in 1996, as a member of the apparently short lived ESA Citizens Task Force, I was part of the tour of the 'pit' East of the East River where you could climb down to the 2 level tunnel (63rd St subway line, I think below), or the empty and somewhat wet LIRR tunnel. You could hear subway trains in the other level. At the time, I had questions for the LIRR staff escorting us.

1. What about double decker trains? No, the tube was a few inches too low vertically to fit what LIRR had chosen to buy. No comment on why they didn't try a slightly lower car than the C3's they did buy or the C1's they already had.
2. How will passengers from diesel country reach GCT? There will be a transfer station at Sunnyside. My impression from what I was told was that it would be a fairly quick across the platform transfer. Of course, we know that LIRR dropped this Sunnyside transfer station from their plans and has never explained how we in diesel country would get to GCT. My assumption today is that LIRR will make it difficult and time consuming, so much so that we might not save any commuting time (but my save subway fare).
3. When will it open? My IMPRESSION was about 10 years after that tour, like about 2006. Of course, now, MAYBE, it may open by Dec 31, 2022.

Oddly, while that tour went well, that was the last time I ever heard from or about the citizens task force. Note that it can be found via Google. BTW, I still have a cute little flashlight they gave all of us that they put together just for the tour. Kind of how I know this wasn't some figment of my imagination.

Another thing. I've heard so many horror stories from this project. One of my favorites; a contractor told me that one of the reasons it's gone so slowly is that safety inspectors, some being H1B's, realized that the more fake safety problems they found, giving an excuse to stop work, the longer they would be employed. He also told me what would happen if a mistake would be found. Day 1, they start work on a change order. Work keeps going on. Several months later, the change order would be approved, then they would rip out all of the affected work and then redo it. He also noted that they were constantly finding huge mistakes in materials including rails.

I don't remember where I heard or was told that the GCT escalators were being done by the same firm that had made a mess of the escalators in the 2nd Ave. Stubway. I can't tell you how reassured I was to hear that, and to hear that some of the first escalators installed had long since broken down.

mkm4
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:14 pm

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by mkm4 »

photobug56 wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:33 pm
2. How will passengers from diesel country reach GCT? There will be a transfer station at Sunnyside. My impression from what I was told was that it would be a fairly quick across the platform transfer. Of course, we know that LIRR dropped this Sunnyside transfer station from their plans and has never explained how we in diesel country would get to GCT. My assumption today is that LIRR will make it difficult and time consuming, so much so that we might not save any commuting time (but my save subway fare).
Change at Jamaica.

Sunnyside was never going to be a transfer station. It was going to be placed after the switch for the tracks to GCT.
It was supposed to replace Hunters Point.

You can see the approximate placement here: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/licity/licity2.htm

photobug56
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by photobug56 »

I'm referring to what LIRR was thinking (to the degree they are capable of thinking) back in 1996. Lots different than now.

As to transferring at Jamaica, to actually save time and be viable, it needs to be an across the platform transfer from a train from or to diesel country to/from the GCT ESA connection. So inbound, maybe track 1 for the diesel as might be today, with the GCT train on track 2, or vice versa. And eastbound, 7&8. If you have to do the up and over idiocy, that can easily add 5 to 10 minutes each way, eliminating much of the time savings, and hard to do for someone in less than great physical condition. What's most likely to happen is that, say, an inbound passenger steps off a Penn train, does up and over - having to walk from wherever he is on the platform to the escalator or elevator on overcrowded platforms, wait to get on, wait to get up, coming down either elevator with a wait, or as I recall, walking down. So an east side destination passenger might end up saving no time at all going to GCT, though if the GCT area is the final destination, they save a subway fare.

As to replacing HPA, what makes much more sense is to properly rebuild HPA subway and LIRR station. Ironically, if one busted through the subway station wall from the mezzanine, you could build a ramp over the train tracks then down to a new LIRR rebuilt platform (one that doesn't bounce as you walk on it). Add elevators inside the subway station from platforms to mezzanine, and one from mezzanine to the street. The ramp would be mostly enclosed to avoid the current weather problems.



But hey, NYCTA would still say know due to the NIH syndrome.

Head-end View
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by Head-end View »

As I envision the transfer at Jamaica, it will work just like it does now with the westbound train on Track-2 serving as a bridge between the trains on Tracks-1 & 3. Assume a diesel train on T-1, a GCT train on T-2 and a Penn Sta. train on T-3.

And the reverse eastbound on Tracks-6-7-8.

Only the Brooklyn riders will get screwed by having to go up and over to the new Platform-F and Tracks-11-12. A real slap in the face to the Brooklyn riders by the LIRR. :(

photobug56
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by photobug56 »

Except for those commuters who can board a Brooklyn bound train at their home station, and vice versa in the evening.

My problem in accepting what you think will happen - I keep asking LIRR and they don't ever answer. What you are saying makes sense. But LIRR seldom if ever makes sense in how they do things. After all, you are talking about a railroad that has schedules based on ones from the 1890's, where some planners still think that there are only farms east of Huntington and Babylon (as one former LIRR president told me personally several years ago. Can't remember his name, but he started out as a ticket agent).

Head-end View
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Re: The East Side Access Project Discussion (ESA)

Post by Head-end View »

I believe the Brooklyn service is being converted to a shuttle operation running only between Jamaica and Atlantic Terminal. Might not be any more thru trains to and from Brooklyn. I'm guessing that what are now Brooklyn trains may become Penn Sta. trains and the current Penn Sta. trains will become GCT trains, or something like that. Maybe a mix.

You're right that service to the east end of Long Island is not particularly good on the LIRR and that is regrettable. But I sure as heck wouldn't want to live in Suffolk and commute daily to NYC even with better service. It was bad enough doing it from central Nassau for 4 years in the 1970's.

Many will not believe this but LIRR is a much better and safer railroad than many people think it is. I think they do a pretty fair job considering the size and complexity of the system. If you don't believe that, try riding the commuter rail lines in Boston or Philadelphia. MTA-LIRR is actually a class act by comparison.

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