Mishap at Union Station, Utica, NY

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BR&P
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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by BR&P » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:00 pm

ut-1 wrote:Closer views of damage to 6721 & its tender plus a view from the overhead passenger walkway:

https://youtu.be/b2k7EBYzrvM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
70 years ago, by now that damage would have been repaired and the engine would be back out working.

Who legally owns the engine? The station complex?

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YamaOfParadise
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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by YamaOfParadise » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:13 pm

Well, as stated, the biggest thing right now is that work needs to be done so that the building can support itself without the tender keeping it up. You only got one chance when you start pulling it out.

That being said, I think 6721 will definitely be able to be repaired from the state she looks to be in now. It's more a function of time and money than feasibility.
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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by Otto Vondrak » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:42 am

BR&P wrote:Of special interest to Rochester area readers here, I have a timebook given to me by a friend who hired out in 1943. The 6721 was on the third trick Car Shop job, CS-3, May 17, 1948, and on the midnight West Base, WB-3 on October 25, 1948...
Neat! Let's bring her back to Rochester :-) I'm thinking of a place... Just 20 minutes south... :-D

-otto-
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tree68
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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by tree68 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:50 pm

BR&P wrote:Who legally owns the engine? The station complex?
I think it's the local NRHS chapter.
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tree68
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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by tree68 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:57 pm

sd80mac wrote:If it wasn't for the bumper, it would had been much worse.

I guess that hopper flew into 6710 after hitting bumper. Yet, it still have enough force to push loco 20-30 some feet into building
That, and the bumper behind the switcher.

I'd opine that if it wasn't for the steamer, the hopper would be sitting on the other side of the tower, with the tower and the walkway on the ground.
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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by sd80mac » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:09 pm

tree68 wrote:That, and the bumper behind the switcher.
WOW!!! Thats a lot of kinetic force!!! Glad that amteak was nowhere nearby... Won't be a good news if passengers were waiting for Amtrak...

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by lvrr325 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:54 am

When that engine was put up for bid somehow the CNY NRHS's bid got leaked and the Utica and Mohawk Valley folks outbid them by like a dollar. Otherwise the engine would be on display at the State Fair on track that through a CSX screwup isn't even currently connected to live rail. So I figure it's a little karma in action.

I'm amazed there were no derails or anything to stop that car before that point, although I suppose it's possible once the loaded car really got moving even a derail might just get kicked aside. It really is a wonder it made it through the street trackage and across 5A without creaming somebody but good.

I have to presume somebody's insurance will pay to fix it, although the little expletive who loosened the handbrake should be making payments against that for the rest of his life.

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by O-6-O » Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:11 pm

WTF!!! I get home from a weeks va ca and get hit with this very sad news. As a former member of the U&MV Chapter I was quite disheartened with this "accident". Really..some kids got it going? J H CHRIST!!
I've got quite a number of hours into that engine
painting, welding, rebuilding the footboards and the number panel in the headlight...what a waste. My very handle here is from that engine.
Securing a parked rail cars is not rocket science. A skate,a chock chain..I mean really Susie Q can that
be difficult? No derails at the Canal siding or track 6 protecting against a runaway? It's on them in my opinion. The irony here is Walter Rich himself donated the panel track and paid for the move that
put the 6721 on it. Never mind what happened to the station or who didn't somehow get killed , the railroad dodged a major bullet IMO. A totally unnecessary event in my mind. Hope they do the right thing here.
One way or the other we're gonna fix this railroad.

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by litz » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:45 pm

The local NRHS chapter owns the locomotive.

I didn't realize there was a paved crossing just before where the locomotive was parked, that covered the track entirely (looks like a good 3-4 inches above the track, too) ...

I wonder how high up that hopper got when it bumped across that.

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by O-6-O » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Just to make myself sick I wandered down to Union Station this afternoon to get a view of the carnage. Bad..very bad is all I can say.

Let me clear up a myth that was posted on this thread. The tender is NOT holding up the corner of the station as reported but it is jammed tight against

the one vertical beam that supports that corner of the ell that was added to the original station structure. It's in very bad shape and one of the crew from Rig-All

explained to me that steel I beam shoring is being rigged to support that corner of the station before any attempt to move either the hopper (ELTX 3121) or the 6721

can precede. Make no mistake about it the station took the worst of the beating on this deal. You can see that the lower flight of the two flight arrangement of stairs

that occupied this corner of the building collapsed as well as the arched windows and much of the brickwork. A temporary work zone fence was being erected to replace the

cones and yellow tape arrangement that defines the area now. A crane is set up on site and access to the scene for pictures is difficult. A 24 hr security detail, at least for now, is in place

and the best shots of the scene are had from the Genesee St bridge overpass. I did not wander over to the Addy Scenic property to view the mess as access to the pedestrian overhead bridge

is closed for the time being. Amtrak passengers have to go outside to the east end of the platform to catch their trains. Karma LV325? Karma might be the steam engine is better off with an organization

that doesn't scrap historic NYC pieces of equipment. Given the current state of the Al Kal Show and the U&MV the 6721 just might be better off in Otto's "playground".
One way or the other we're gonna fix this railroad.

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by ut-1 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:58 pm

Here's a video showing a bit of the first day of work:

https://youtu.be/VlcL9gnnh68" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by sd80mac » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:37 pm

O-6-O wrote: Let me clear up a myth that was posted on this thread. The tender is NOT holding up the corner of the station as reported but it is jammed tight against

one of the crew from Rig-All explained to me that steel I beam shoring is being rigged to support that corner of the station before any attempt to move either the hopper (ELTX 3121) or the 6721

can precede. Make no mistake about it the station took the worst of the beating on this deal.
Of course! I said "most likely" while I'm 175 miles away..

Sure! It could have hold up or is stuck inside portion collasped building. That's clearly to any of engineer's mind and its obviously why u cannot move ANYTHING until u secured the buildings... Even the same for the huge car pile-up accidents. I did mentioned that tender could scraping the support beam which could make things far worse than it is. Scrapping cause the vibration. Or causing beam become loose. Then tender could caught bean and pull it down.

Also I mentioned that they're not gonna do anything until they secured the building first.


Hell. We... Well maybe just few of us know that building took the worst of all... Clearly!!! Hopper cover can be pulled away from scene, unloaded, and scrapped... That goes same for 6721... Scrapped or do-over project at later.... These have no impact on people and businesses. But building.. Yeah huge impact and VERY COSTLY that need to be taken care of immediately! Emergency and urgent means higher price than what it would normally short bec mostly are more worried about 6721 than building. So I just saying if u pull it out, whole stairway bldg is gonna collapse onto 6721.

I don't know if u're venting it out over little thing like my post...but if u did, don't throw it at us. We didn't knock the brakes loose...

I just post it at same time to keep it simple and short

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by tree68 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:46 pm

litz wrote:The local NRHS chapter owns the locomotive.

I didn't realize there was a paved crossing just before where the locomotive was parked, that covered the track entirely (looks like a good 3-4 inches above the track, too) ...
That crossing wasn't there when the incident occurred. It was put in afterwards so passengers could reach Track 1 via the crossing on the west side of the towers (which has been there all along).

Early photos (right after the incident) show Amtrak and security personnel helping folks get across where the crossing is now - a step stool was in use to get people off the platform and down to "ballast" level.
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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by O-6-O » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:02 am

Hell. We... Well maybe just few of us know that building took the worst of all... Clearly!!! Hopper cover can be pulled away from scene, unloaded, and scrapped... That goes same for 6721... Scrapped or do-over project at later.... These have no impact on people and businesses. But building.. Yeah huge impact and VERY COSTLY that need to be taken care of immediately! Emergency and urgent means higher price than what it would normally short bec mostly are more worried about 6721 than building. So I just saying if u pull it out, whole stairway bldg is gonna collapse onto 6721.

I don't know if u're venting it out over little thing like my post...but if u did, don't throw it at us. We didn't knock the brakes loose...
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What's all this MAC? I didn't blame you or anyone else for anything I was just trying to clear up what might have been confusion to some about what's going on down there.

Scrap the hopper and the 6721??? Where is that coming from? The hopper isn't damaged that much (from my untrained eye at a distance) and the 6721 being a historic piece certainly isn't

going to get scrapped. It's probably too early to project what the chapter may have planned for it's repair. I'm not venting as you may think more like lamenting as this was entirely unnecessary.

The fact that runaways have happened on this line before and still cars are being fooled with without proper securing is just foolish IMHO. I noticed a temporary derail is now on track 6 about a quarter

mile west of the scene. Too little to late now I'm afraid.
One way or the other we're gonna fix this railroad.

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Re: Utica Derailment 7/21: Union Station Damaged

Post by sd80mac » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:59 pm

O-6-O wrote: I didn't blame you or anyone else for anything I was just trying to clear up what might have been confusion to some about what's going on down there.

Scrap the hopper and the 6721??? Where is that coming from? The hopper isn't damaged that much (from my untrained eye at a distance) and the 6721 being a historic piece certainly isn't

going to get scrapped. It's probably too early to project what the chapter may have planned for it's repair. I'm not venting as you may think more like lamenting as this was entirely unnecessary.

The fact that runaways have happened on this line before and still cars are being fooled with without proper securing is just foolish IMHO. I noticed a temporary derail is now on track 6 about a quarter

mile west of the scene. Too little to late now I'm afraid.
I am only one that stated that tender is keeping the building in the place. and taking it out would take it down.

the worst case first, and hope for better one, not the other way around. Isn't what you ask for at the doctor's office? "what's the worst case?" No video or photos were clear enough to show any serious damage to locomotive but we cant see hidden damages with our naked eyes. Only thing that I can see that is bend is the "walkway" (im not sure of proper word for that) on the boiler and I am hoping that was the worse one that got bent, other than front which would need a lot of work, along with the area between tender and locomotive. and rear end of tender.

I know that it sucks that a kid were playing on it.. nothing we can do.

But we got to look at 6721 in positive way... 6721 was big HERO as I stated in FB that people should not be upset about 6721's damage and they should look at 6721 as big hero for saving the building and some numbers of injuries and deaths if 6721 was not there. Now that the video, posted recently, stated that the passengers were waiting on other side of building.. holy cow if 6721 were not sitting there.. I am really glad that 6721 was placed there to stop that runaway car instead of sitting at the state fairground. I know that it is not intended to put there to stop any runaway cars as if someone were looking at crystal ball. VERY fortunately in UGLY way that 6721 was placed there.

another positive thing, but not what we wanted in this kind of case, is that organization are getting money from NYSW (most likely - cant be coming from 13 yr old kid's family as they don't have money) to repair the locomotive which would make it look newer and better. Or even better, NYSW would repair the locomotive.


I don't think that derail would stop 40 mph runaway car. I have heard of stories of how cars are kicking the derail out of way... especially 8888, remember?

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