Did Baldwin die because of their production success in WWII

[Mimbrogno]

I read over in another forum a little footnote that Baldwin's vast production effort during WWII, with the resulting contract profits, ended up killing Baldwin in the postwar period. It was stated that the production volume was so vast, and Baldwin could produce and deliver equipment so cheaply, that they gained enormus profits. There profits were so high they couldn't spend it all, and they had massive "excess profit taxes" which plunged them right into debt as soon as the shooting stopped. With such a massive debt, they couldn't retool the works for postwar production, and their production stagnated as a result. This ment they couldn't make any money, and were on the slippery slop to oblivion.

I wanted to know, is all this true? Did Baldwin's own success end up ruining the company? Can anyone offer any further insights into Baldwin's demise, apart from the compition from EMD? (I'm so fed up with that I can't stand talking about it anymore!)

Thanks,
Matthew Imbrogno
-Mechanical Vollenteer, Arizona Railway Museum.
www.azrymuseum.org

[scottychaos]

"excess profit taxes" which plunged them right into debt as soon as the shooting stopped.

that doesnt make sense..
that math doesnt add up.
if you make a huge profit, and get taxed more because you made more money, you still come out *ahead* after taxes!
you cant get taxed MORE than you make..(well, not yet anyway! im sure the govt is working on it!)

so I dont see how making a huge profit, and being taxed accordingly, causes you to go into debt.

getting taxed at 50% on a $500,000 a year salary still ends up being more money than being taxed 10% on a $12,000 a year salary.

Scot

[mxdata]

The factors contributing to Baldwin's demise are pretty extensively discussed in John Kirkland's book. As far as the competition from EMD is concerned, the events were sixty years ago, its done and over with.

[hankadam]

Matthew - - - As an earlier reply notes, "that doesn't make sense." You don't indicate that other forum, but what ever it may be seems to be supposition, and not factual data. While I did not get to Eddystone until 1954, the BALDWIN plant, even then was not all that efficient, and I heard MANY "horror stories" about WW II inefficiencies. But again that is all here-say. None of the financial people are alive today so where did this "other forum" get their data? Quite suspicious! Also, as a great friend of John Kirkland, and as a big help to him in the writing of his books, I can attest to the accuracy and meticulous detail that went into the preparation of all of his volumes; I wish they were still in print, but as we have discussed in the past, they are very rare. (I've been to your Museum and you all are doing a great job).

[alcodude]

[Mimbrogno]

I saw the note on the Trains.com forum. Here's a link:

http://www.trains.com/TRC/CS/forums/985 ... wPost.aspx

I knew that Baldwin had been on a steady decline since 1951 with the managment shakups, trouble with Westinghouse, and competition, (I think 1950 was the best year for their products) but I just didn't see any initial trigger for such a precipitous decline. The depression bankrupted virtually everyone, and WWII saw a rebirth of all the great industries, including Baldwin. I know that the WPB really screwed them over as far as product quality and subsequent economic impact goes, but it wasn't too much better for everyone else. The taxes though make sense as a cause for the initial snowball that started the avalanch. The taxes obviously weren't so much that they put Baldwin in debt litereally, (I should have written that better in my previous post) but they could have hindered Baldwins redevelopment for peacetime production to such an extent that they couldn't compete. This may be just all supposition, but I wouldn't doubt EMD had a hand in Baldwins demise, beyond that of just simple competion. GM/EMD was like a corprate mob back then. They manipulated governments and laws to get their way and crush any competition. They were a vicious predator company that had a major hand in eliminating the street car in the 1960s, amoung other things. There was an expose on PBS a while back about how GM bribed officials, stuffed ballot boxes, took over managing boards, and even bought out companies from underneith themselves to get rid of the interurban street car. They even had a subsidiary company that would buy a streetcar company and use it's asset value to buy another one, then use the combined value to by another one, and carry on until they had so many companies, then they just liquidated it all. They sold all the rolling stock, track, ROW, buildings, and equipment, which would pay off their dept while giving them a tidy profit left over. Then GM would follow up selling busses to the cities that suddenly found themselves without public transportation. GM was reaping in profits.

EMD may not have gone that far with Baldwin, but I'm sure that at least in some extent they pulled some strings, bought a few favors, and manipulated the company into a downward spiral. That's why I hate EMD, It is so galling that EMD succeded with massive profits and a terribly inferior product while Baldwin failed even though they had a product that EMD wouldn't match for at least 20 years after BLH left the locomotive business.

I like that definition of EMD posted earlier, but I think I got a slightly better one:
EMD = Electro-Mechanical Disaster

And Mr Rentschler, when were you out to our museum last? I hope you got to see #10 running. She is an awsome locomotive, even though she is rather worn. It's still hard to imagine that engine could pull 159 50-ton cars at 10mph on level track. It's no wonder they call 'em Dragons!

Matthew Imbrogno
-Mechanoical Vollenteer, Arizona Railway Museum
www.azrymuseum.org

Anyone got any Baldwin engine parts to donate?

[clutch]

It has been shown that the streetcar's demise was not a conspiracy of the car, tire and petroleum industries. Streetcars went away because most people didn't want to ride on worn out systems. Yes most cities should have at least saved the right o ways for the future but most didn't.

[PCook]

I went over to take a look at that discussion string on trains dot com. Fascinating reading, I can't even begin to list all the completely new "facts" I learned from some of the folks posting on that string.

[hankadam]

PCook - - - Many thanks - - - I was afraid that I was losing my mind or that my dictionary did not know the definition of the word "facts." Those "facts" on the link you mention are sheer nonsense and based on hyperbole and just plain unfounded supposition. In all of my posts I have been extremely careful to be as accurate as possible, or if it is only my memory (since many of the documents are long-gone) I has said so, delineating time and place. Congratulations for pointing out the truth. All the best, Hank Rentschler

[PCook]

Yes Hank, I was tempted to write up some of the details on there that are pure fantasy, but since there is so much there that is the product of peoples imaginations I thought it was better to just have fun with it. There were one or two people on that string (one of whom is a regular here) trying to steer it back to reality, but a lot of it looked like adventures in railroad fantasyland.

Your attention to accuracy in your postings has been noticed and is very much appreciated!
PC

[Typewriters]

I also looked at the string, and while I was immediately tempted to post (which would have required joining, I suppose) I resisted the temptation because it would be a practical impossibility to correct all the misinformation posted there either in a realistic time frame or in a way that would not make me seem to act only in contradiction.

As Mr. Rentschler knows (for he had a large hand in it) one of the best pieces of advice ever given to railfans is contained in John Kirkland's book covering the history of Baldwin Locomotive Works and its diesel locomotive production. "Take the time to come into possession of the facts" is a phrase used several times, in various forms in this book as a kind of theme regarding Baldwin locomotives and diesel engines, and it should be well remembered in these internet forum venues in particular.

Time! There's the thing. Related to Mr. Cook's post in another string (EMD) regarding the general malaise in railfan publications these days is the fact that taking TIME is something most people don't want to do now. The five-second flashes of slides at railfan oriented meetings are interesting anywhere from one to five seconds, but not more than that since they last no longer. Why not twenty seconds per slide? Well, after all, they're just pretty pictures.

What then is the railfan with slightly higher curiosity than average to do in a sphere with slightly lower than average attention span? Engage in hyperbole, conjecture, gossip, "imagineering" and sheer speculation -- that seems more than obvious.

Unfortunately this highly developed and well-traveled kind of bunk continues to remove the railfan community from the reality of the situation and enterprise it is substantially built to examine and enjoy. Would that it were different, but that's part of the nature of this field as it stands today. Don't understand the evolution of complicated machines and also don't understand marketing? Well, then, just invent models of something that never existed. (EMD "F-5", anybody?) Such unreality is now (again unfortunately) a part of the lexicon entrenched to the point that scale models are built and advertised with such never-happened designations. IS THERE another enthusiast field so removed from reality as this? One wonders.

We are indeed lucky to have individuals such as Preston Cook, and Hank Rentschler here on the locomotive side -- and to have railroaders such as LCJ and mxdata with real, "in the field" information given in a fully explanatory and non-condescending manner. If only their influence would spread.

-Will Davis

[EDM5970]

Oh, boy. I just took a look at the aforementioned Trains.com forum. It appears that the only things that some of the unread have read are things written by other members of the unread. Doesn't anyone know how to do any serious research anymore?

I tend to have have well-researched published resources by the computer when I write for some of these forums, checking facts, drawings and photos. Yet I'm frequently told that I'm wrong- I guess the fans know everything.

[PCook]

The internet has revolutionized the process of spreading incorrect information, providing those who do no research with the means to instantly distribute their fables all over the world. Once incorrect stories are in circulation, there is no way to shut them down or correct them, and they are regurgitated repeatedly until the frequency of their appearance starts to give them an air of credibility. Sometimes the fables are relatively harmless, but other times the distortions are obviously deliberate and malicious. A while back on one of the discussions on this website an individual posted a story of a fatal accident involving a particular locomotive on a railroad now long gone, and knowingly changed details of the location, the equipment, and the circumstances involved. The correct details of the accident were published in print and very well known. When other posts pointed out the inaccuracies in his account of the accident, he made fun of them, to him it was apparently all just a big joke. I knew the gentleman who was killed in that accident and was at the scene shortly after it happened, and it was very grim, and not something anybody in their right mind would ever consider turning into a fairy tale story. You really have got to wonder about why people take events like that and distort the details for their personal amusement. But what that person wrote will now probably be repeated endlessly until it obscures or hopelessly confuses the correct version of the story. The internet is truly becoming the disinformation superhighway.

[Newyorkcentralfan]

"I read over in another forum a little footnote that Baldwin's vast production effort during WWII, with the resulting contract profits, ended up killing Baldwin in the postwar period. It was stated that the production volume was so vast, and Baldwin could produce and deliver equipment so cheaply, that they gained enormus profits. There profits were so high they couldn't spend it all, and they had massive "excess profit taxes" which plunged them right into debt as soon as the shooting stopped. With such a massive debt, they couldn't retool the works for postwar production, and their production stagnated as a result. This ment they couldn't make any money, and were on the slippery slop to oblivion."

This is a steaming pile of intestinal sculpture. Whoever told you this is delusional.

"I wanted to know, is all this true? Did Baldwin's own success end up ruining the company? Can anyone offer any further insights into Baldwin's demise, apart from the compition from EMD? (I'm so fed up with that I can't stand talking about it anymore!)"

In short, no.

Baldwin's demise was caused by having a inferior business plan and making an inferior product. From what I understand Baldwin's products were almost custom jobs. There were significant changes which varied greatly from order to order. This played havoc with having economies of scale by utilizing mass producing parts. That's also why modeling them is so challenging.

They had no prewar diesel road units. Baldwin wasn't committed to the fulfilling this rapidly expanding market. So after the war they weren't in the position that EMD and even ALCO was in, of having tested designs to put into production. Their customers of first production units were basically their R&D department. That's never a good thing.

Even FM, who was a newcomer, did a better job of creating a decent production locomotive.

Another major problem was their air operated throttle which made them non mu-able with other locomotives.

They were primarily a steam builder, believed that diesels were a fad until it was blindingly obvious that they weren't and then had to play catch-up. They didn't even have their own prime mover. They used De La Vergne's marine engine.

[Newyorkcentralfan]

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