North Carolina NCDOT-Amtrak Carolinian Service

[Station Aficionado]

Yeah, the time keeping problems for 19/20 are south of Charlotte and won’t be helped by cutting a couple of middle of the night stops in NC.

[orulz]

This thread has been quiet for a while, but a quick note that construction has begun for the Crabtree Creek Bridge replacement in Morrisville. I have not managed to find any documents detailing the design of this bridge. I have heard that, although It will initially contain just one track but it will be built wide enough for two. I am quite glad to see this rickety looking structure finally meeting its end.

Plans are moving forward for the grade separation at McCrimmon Parkway, too. Morrisville Carpenter Road will probably be a bit more tricky although I gather that a grade separation is planned there, too.

Progress update. There is a ... thing... that appears to doing ... stuff, related to the laying of tracks, on this bridge.

20200107_164656.jpg (810.93 KiB) Viewed 1778 times

[Arlington]

There's this on the NCRR.com site which suggests the Crabtree/Morrisville work is in the homestretch:
https://www.ncrr.com/investing-in-nc/in ... rovements/

Wake County: Morrisville Crabtree Creek Bridge NCRR is constructing a new railroad bridge over Crabtree Creek in Morrisville, replacing a structure built in 1927. It includes a provision for a pedestrian greenway under the bridge and allows for a future second track that could be required to maintain freight service and any future passenger rail. Total Cost: $9.8 million
NCRR Investment: $8.7 million
Completion Date: 2020

And at the end of this March 2019 list, there are the projects for 2020 and "TBD" completion:
https://www.ncrr.com/wp-content/uploads ... 282019.pdf

[ThirdRail7]

Two other tidbits learned yesterday-- 4th train to start service in June 2018 and 5th train planned for 2020.

NCDOT will be seeking bids in coming months to convert 8 of the 9 circus train cars that NC bought to 66 seat coaches for the 5th train.

Apparently, they didn't solicit the bids quick enough and the cars are sitting in the woods.

NCDOT bought part of a Ringling Bros. circus train and now isn’t sure what to do with it
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local ... 19297.html

NCDOT bought the cars shortly after the final performance of the circus in New York in 2017. The state paid $383,000 and planned to have the cars refurbished and used on the Piedmont, the passenger train that makes three round-trips a day between Raleigh and Charlotte.

But then NCDOT received a $77 million federal grant that will allow it to buy 13 new rail cars, forcing it to reevaluate its plans for the circus train, according to Jason Orthner, director of NCDOT’s Rail Division. NCDOT, which never publicized its purchase of the Ringling Bros. cars, has kept them on a little-used stretch of rail in Nash County ever since.

This has naturally drawn the attention of posturing politicians.

The location of the train cars was first reported this week by the Carolina Journal, and some Republicans quickly jumped on it as a symptom of mismanagement at NCDOT.

“NCDOT ran out of money to build roads but was able to buy circus trains,” tweeted Lt. Gov. Dan Forest, who is seeking the Republican nomination for governor, referring to the department’s financial crisis that forced it to delay pre-construction engineering work on hundreds of road projects last year.

“NCDOT blows $2 billion hole in its budget and buys a Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey train for nearly $400,000. Then hides it, unused, in the woods for years,” Treasurer Dale Folwell, a vocal critic of the agency’s handling of its finances, wrote on Facebook. “Life’s a circus at DOT.”

NCDot, had a nice response. I would have taken a nice dig at the detractors but that doesn't really help matters. The question is, will these cars finally get put to good use?

[David Benton]

gotta love a treasurer who uses $ 2 billon , and $ 400k in the same sentence. Of course , the larger sum is for roads , and the smaller for rail , so its ok.

[gokeefe]

Oh man. They won't hear the end of this for years ...

[njtmnrrbuff]

If there are any of those old circus railcars in good shape, then maybe they could run on the NCDOT Piedmont trains. Remember, soon, we will know what will be replacing the Amfleet 1s and the NCDOT Heritage Cars may not be running forever. Whatever NC wants to do with the future of their heritage cars and motive power is up to them. Whatever Amtrak decides to order for the replacement of Amfleet 1s, I wouldn't be too surprised if NCDOT decides to piggyback onto the order for the Piedmonts. The Carolinian train will use Amtrak owned equipment.

[Bob Roberts]

Based on that last passenger equipment grant, it feels like the FRA would like to phase out all heritage gear from passenger use, regardless of how well it has been refurbished. As a regular Piedmont rider who avoids the Carolinian because the heritage gear is much more pleasant, I think that is a big mistake.

If the FRA allows for some flexibility then the (very cheap) circus train gear could be used on the Raleigh-Wilmington route while the Piedmont train sets are retired as necessary. This would require some low key CSX negotiations between Goldsboro and Wallace and a good bit of refurbished track but none of that is big money territory.

[The Carolina Journal would complain about $1 being wasted, unless it was being spent on roads]

[njtmnrrbuff]

I grew up with riding in Amfleets and I have to say that it's time for them to be retired. I didn't ride heritage cars very much but when I attended Streamliner Railfest in 2014, I rode the Piedmont a few times and was very impressed with those heritage cars. I rode the Carolinian down to NC and then I took the Silver Star back. The heritage cars are in good shape despite their age but I think now it's time to use more updated equipment. I do want to see those heritage cars get more mileage but maybe off the mainline. It would be nice for a train to run to the outer banks of NC, even to Wilmington.

[David Benton]

Will those small windows be acceptable to emergency services? And to passengers?

[mtuandrew]

Based on that last passenger equipment grant, it feels like the FRA would like to phase out all heritage gear from passenger use, regardless of how well it has been refurbished. As a regular Piedmont rider who avoids the Carolinian because the heritage gear is much more pleasant, I think that is a big mistake.

I wish they would keep the Heritage cars too, but then they were always meant as a stopgap so service could start on the cheap. North Carolina could always refuse the grant I suppose?

If the FRA allows for some flexibility then the (very cheap) circus train gear could be used on the Raleigh-Wilmington route while the Piedmont train sets are retired as necessary. This would require some low key CSX negotiations between Goldsboro and Wallace and a good bit of refurbished track but none of that is big money territory.

[The Carolina Journal would complain about $1 being wasted, unless it was being spent on roads]

Now would be the time for NCDOT to buy out CSX, wouldn’t it! It doesn’t seem like the company is wedded to most of its branch lines.

[Tadman]

gotta love a treasurer who uses $ 2 billon , and $ 400k in the same sentence. Of course , the larger sum is for roads , and the smaller for rail , so its ok.

It's an absolutely crazy analogy to make, but the general public will probably swallow it whole and parrot it for years to come. That's why optics are so darn important. That's why all the very public errors and bloopers that we've come to "accept" at Amtrak as the cost of doing business cost the organization so dearly. If Amtrak could serve seniors efficiently and properly in Florida, I bet the local politicians would be much less hostile. Seniors are a very active republican demographic.

If the FRA allows for some flexibility then the (very cheap) circus train gear could be used on the Raleigh-Wilmington route while the Piedmont train sets are retired as necessary. This would require some low key CSX negotiations between Goldsboro and Wallace and a good bit of refurbished track but none of that is big money territory.

Now would be the time for NCDOT to buy out CSX, wouldn’t it! It doesn’t seem like the company is wedded to most of its branch lines.

Boy wouldn't that be a twist on history. Wilmington, although not seemingly big in the CSX system, is perhaps the most important (and easily top five) cities in the system. It was ACL headquarters. From what I understand, ACL was the dominant partner with the SAL/ACL merger, and then the SCL was at first the dominant partner in the CSX merger until Prime Osborn was driven out. You'll notice L&N grey was a prominent color until the mid-80's and has slowly disappeared in comparison to C&O blue/yellow.

[SouthernRailway]

Republicans in NC (and I was one), for some reason, simply hate trains. I would ignore the Carolina Journal and other mouthpieces.

[Tadman]

Republicans in NC (and I was one), for some reason, simply hate trains. I would ignore the Carolina Journal and other mouthpieces.

I think we forget this mindset when we advocate for passenger trains. The mindset of half the country is that cars represent freedom, and trains are archaic socialist modes of transport that resemble something between an awful Penn Central grimy rusty leaky POS and a steam train from ancient history in Little House on the Prairie or Oregon Trail. Whether this is right or wrong it makes optics a very big deal. People love confirmation bias, regardless of the factual correctness or perspective.

When you have a regions like North Carolina, Socal, or Central Texas, a regional train may be a good idea but selling the concept requires jumping extra hurdles. Keeping the optics real clean helps reduce those hurdles. So does making trains predictable and reliable. It goes back to my philosophy that I'd rather see a 79mph train that runs on time every day with good wifi and clean bathrooms than a 125mph corridor train made of special stuff or a sleeper-multi-night that is always late.

[njtmnrrbuff]

As long as if the 79 mph train runs on time and is time competitive with driving, then I am pretty cool with that. That's better than a 125 mph train heading from NYP-BOS running late all the time, particularly when it runs between New Rochelle and New Haven given that Metro North Railroad gets the priority. Back to the Piedmont-isn't there a plan to allow the Piedmont Trains to get up to 90 mph?