North Carolina NCDOT-Amtrak Carolinian Service

[Literalman]

The FRA report from a year ago shows the Carolinian covering 95% of its fully allocated costs from passenger revenue. I agree that Virginia ought to chip in. But if the logistics work out, a New Haven extension wouldn't be foisting a huge cost onto Amtrak.

[mtuandrew]

SR, do you suppose that either of the cities I mentioned would be interested in lending a hand, especially since Amtrak would have to pick up operational costs and they'd just be responsible for station/yard improvements?

[SouthernRailway]

SR, do you suppose that either of the cities I mentioned would be interested in lending a hand, especially since Amtrak would have to pick up operational costs and they'd just be responsible for station/yard improvements?

Greenville and Spartanburg would not, but Columbia might.

I-77 between Charlotte and Columbia has little traffic and it's easy to zip from one to the other, so I am not sure that rail would be viewed as a necessity or could attract enough ridership, though.

I-85 between Charlotte and Greenville is a mess, with rising traffic and heavy road construction, and fares from GSP (the local airport) are usually significantly higher than from Charlotte, so there is definitely a market for it, but with conservatives' hatred of passenger rail generally, and the Upstate's deeply conservative politics, there's no prospect there. (Not bashing conservatives--I am one, but I just don't get why conservatives constantly oppose rail on the grounds that they favor the "free market" but then try to block even private-sector passenger rail and favor increases in tax dollars being spent on highways.)

The business community and Clemson University might contribute some cash (although it would be hard to run the train to Clemson and have it end there, since the line through Clemson is single-track and there is no storage track anywhere nearby as far as I know).

The main issue I see is that based on the schedule posted above, which seems reasonable, the extended Carolinian would get to Greenville at around the same times as the Crescent currently does. Amtrak ridership in Greenville at least is far lower than ridership would usually be for a city of that size, due to those terrible times (and due to the bad location of the train station, in a derelict area).

[ebtmikado]

[quote=Can't they make a transfer at Penn Station onto another Amtrak regional?[/quote]

Since that very early morning Metroliner from New Haven was taken off, New England has lost its connections to the Maple Leaf, the Adirondack, the Palmetto, and the Cardinal.
Presently, it entails a wait of several hours in the middle of the night at Penn Station, which is just about as scary as one can imagine.
For 31 years, I worked as a travel agent in an agency in New Haven that was one of Amtrak's biggest Connecticut agencies.
We lost a lot of business when those early morning/late evening trains were taken off.
Extending the Carolinian would resolve that issue in both directions.


Lee

[Suburban Station]

Since that very early morning Metroliner from New Haven was taken off, New England has lost its connections to the Maple Leaf, the Adirondack, the Palmetto, and the Cardinal.
Presently, it entails a wait of several hours in the middle of the night at Penn Station, which is just about as scary as one can imagine.
For 31 years, I worked as a travel agent in an agency in New Haven that was one of Amtrak's biggest Connecticut agencies.
We lost a lot of business when those early morning/late evening trains were taken off.
Extending the Carolinian would resolve that issue in both directions.


Lee

excellent point. even setting aside whether penn station is scary, sitting overnight in any station is far less desirable than a good connection. having a morning train out of new haven makes a lot of sense and likely won't cost much, if anything, due to the extra revenue generated from connections and direct ridership

[MACTRAXX]

Since that very early morning Metroliner from New Haven was taken off, New England has lost its connections to the Maple Leaf, the Adirondack, the Palmetto, and the Cardinal.
Presently, it entails a wait of several hours in the middle of the night at Penn Station, which is just about as scary as one can imagine.
For 31 years, I worked as a travel agent in an agency in New Haven that was one of Amtrak's biggest Connecticut agencies.
We lost a lot of business when those early morning/late evening trains were taken off.
Extending the Carolinian would resolve that issue in both directions.


Lee

excellent point. even setting aside whether penn station is scary, sitting overnight in any station is far less desirable than a good connection. having a morning train out of new haven makes a lot of sense and likely won't cost much, if anything, due to the extra revenue generated from connections and direct ridership

Lee: Penn Station scary today - are you kidding me?

Penn Station - since 9/11 - is probably one of the safer places to be overnights because of the multiple agency police coverage
by the Amtrak,MTA,NYPD and NY National Guard MPs on duty. The only problems that you may notice is late night intoxicated
riders taking overnight trains out of NYP. The Amtrak "OK Corral" waiting room requires a ticket for entry and guarded with APD
patrols regularly. The general environment at NYP is far better then it was in the 90s and before when it was a lousy place to be
stuck at especially if one had missed a train and was faced with a very long wait until trains on certain routes resume mornings.

I do agree about a forced transfer and wait being a big drawback especially during an overnight when alternate options such as
places to go and eat a meal being one example are either closed or unavailable. Station fast food such as pizza are available.
A short duration connecting wait with reasonable time padding in case of delay is probably best for a transfer at NYP to work.

MACTRAXX

[east point]

That early morning train New Haven NYP does have much potential. Took it many years ago and the good connection possibilities at NYP both Amtrak and commuter rail. Plus better location for business in lower Manhattan.

[R36 Combine Coach]

Since that very early morning Metroliner from New Haven was taken off, New England has lost its connections to the Maple Leaf, the Adirondack, the Palmetto, and the Cardinal.

Was this the single New Haven Metroliner roundtrip introduced on 10/28/73?

[ebtmikado]

Yes, it was.
Lee

[NJTSmurf]

Interesting discussion. I take the Carolinian once a year round trip to Raleigh to visit a friend at different times of year. Almost every time the train is sold out. (It's usually pretty full going across the Virginia/NC border, but there is definitely a lot of VA only traffic) Assuming NcDOT is actually concerned about costs, I'd assume the easiest thing to do is add another coach car? (or raise fares slightly, they are very reasonable and haven't moved much in recent years) That said, not sure where the Amfleet would come from, and that also assumes an additional P42 or additional crew would not be required. (not sure how much this consist pushes the P42's HP)

I definitely agree with Dutch, terminating this train in New Haven is not realistic.

[Backshophoss]

Back when the Metroliner ran to NHV,the set laid over at the platform till the early am departure.
Maybe do the same thing with the Carolinian Consist,leave it at the platform while the motor was serviced?

[Bob Roberts]

Interesting discussion. I take the Carolinian once a year round trip to Raleigh to visit a friend at different times of year. Almost every time the train is sold out. (It's usually pretty full going across the Virginia/NC border, but there is definitely a lot of VA only traffic) Assuming NcDOT is actually concerned about costs, I'd assume the easiest thing to do is add another coach car? (or raise fares slightly, they are very reasonable and haven't moved much in recent years) That said, not sure where the Amfleet would come from, and that also assumes an additional P42 or additional crew would not be required. (not sure how much this consist pushes the P42's HP)

I definitely agree with Dutch, terminating this train in New Haven is not realistic.

Consist size on the Carolinian has been limited by the length of the layover siding in Charlotte. NCDOT is about midway through construction of a larger layover facility a couple miles miles west of the current siding (ARRA funded) that should be opened within the next year. An additional amfleet (or two) should push the train into the profitable category -- so I am genuinely puzzled about the talk of route extension.

[SouthernRailway]

Why isn't the layover track in Charlotte built at the NS yard at the airport, just a few miles west of the current Charlotte station? If the train (and the Piedmont trains) stopped at the Charlotte airport, that could also help ridership.

[Bob Roberts]

Why isn't the layover track in Charlotte built at the NS yard at the airport, just a few miles west of the current Charlotte station? If the train (and the Piedmont trains) stopped at the Charlotte airport, that could also help ridership.

I do agree that the new storage yard would have made much more sense if it were built as part of an airport station. The new storage facility is at Summit ave, just to the west of downtown. Its about 4 miles from the airport. The only things stopping a CLT airport station is 1) a station and associated siding; 2) connecting the station to the airport terminal and 3) NS has been very reluctant to share tracks around the airport due to its new intermodal terminal there. Distance is short but it would be many millions to get heavy rail airport service going. Up until last week one of the biggest barriers to airport passenger service was the CSX grade crossing downtown. This obstacle may be disappearing since (I suspect) Hunter Harrison will seriously downgrade CSX's use of their Charlotte subdivision and (perhaps) relocate their intermodal facility to their main in Monroe.

CATS will begin studies of a mass transit route to the airport this summer. This option allows for much better frequency (the airport is quite close to downtown) a one seat ride to the future Gateway station and direct connections to the remainder of the Charlotte transit system. Unfortunately funding any expansion of transit in Charlotte is currently a huge mystery...

[Woody]

The FRA report from a year ago shows the Carolinian covering 95% of its fully allocated costs from passenger revenue. ... wouldn't be a huge cost onto ... Amtrak.

Covering almost all its costs for some years now, the Carolinian should be on nobody's list of Amtrak's Top Ten Trains to Worry About. Essentially running at break-even, it can only get better in a normal world.

Virginia (and CSX) got a pot of federal money to add another track thru or around Quantico, and save as much as 10 minutes from the schedule. If that was Stimulus money the spending deadline is this summer. A faster trip on that segment D.C.-Richmond will help Carolinian revenue.

Most of the stations Charlotte-Raleigh have been upgraded, along with the ROW on this shared Piedmont/Carolinian route. A new station for Raleigh is under construction. The ROW upgrades are expected to take 20-30 minutes out of the trip time. Another round trip frequency will be added to the Piedmont schedule. Ridership on the Carolinian should benefit nicely.

I'd been expecting the Carolinian would become break-even or surplus in operations as soon as FY 2018. Adding it to the Amtrak system would be a nothingburger.

I have a hunch there may be other things going on in the background. Maybe management thinks it would help to say to Congress, "Four of our 16 LD routes run a surplus -- the Auto Train, the Palmetto, the Carolinian, and the Silver Meteor -- and we're working on the others." Someone may figure that Congress could be more likely to fund track upgrades for a pure Amtrak route (looking at the "S Line" restoration Petersburg-Raleigh) than for a state-supported route. Amtrak may want to set a nice precedent of a state-supported route "growing up" into a full-system route.

I dunno perzactly but there's something more here.