FDNY regulation of Amtrak

[DutchRailnut]

needles to say that FDNY is not fond of any fuel in NYP complex , the 3 LIRR FL-9ac had special fuel tanks with a sponge like material inside.
(believe the DM's have same) , expensive and when damaged, the cost to replace was worth it to side line the Locomotive when that FL-9ac rolled into turntable pit.

[MattW]

Why does the FDNY get to tell a federally-regulated entity (Amtrak, LIRR, etc.) what to do?

[mtuandrew]

Moderator Note: split from the Freight Locomotive thread. I’ve wondered why/how FDNY regulates how diesels can be brought into Penn Station myself.

[ThirdRail7]

There are federal regulations, state regulations, and city regulations. You can make regulations that are more restrictive than federal code. In general, you can't make them less restrictive.

[gokeefe]

Why does the FDNY get to tell a federally-regulated entity (Amtrak, LIRR, etc.) what to do?

They're not really telling Amtrak what they can or cannot do per se. They're regulating the tunnel itself. Local control of fire safety codes for facilities is some thing that is quite well established as a local power. This would be similar to fire code enforcement at a local airport, bus terminal or ferry terminal.

So, Amtrak remains perfectly free to own and operate diesel electric engines virtually anywhere. But the conditions of operation in the tunnel are regulated by local government as part of their jurisdictional authority. In the code (NFPA) this is often referred to as the "AHJ" or the "Authority Having Jurisdiction".

[ApproachMedium]

That authority is violated quite often. They run operating diesels thru all the NY tunnels more now than ever, since the dual modes are turning to crap and more often P42s come down, you have no choice. The work trains used to always get towed thru with electrics but since the summer of hell that went out the window and now the GP15s pull stuff back and fourth thru the station all the time and smoke it out.

[Ken W2KB]

There are federal regulations, state regulations, and city regulations. You can make regulations that are more restrictive than federal code. In general, you can't make them less restrictive.

Correct, but add in the further qualifications (1) some areas are completely pre-empted by federal law or regulation and states and subdivisions have no authority to effect any changes, and (2) for those areas not completely pre-empted, no state or state subdivision regulation is valid if it places an undue burden on interstate commerce.

[eolesen]

Counties and cities cannot put higher emission standards into effect on individual airports, nor can they regulate trucks in interstate commerce. So why does FDNY get to regulate locomotives used for Interstate transportation?

I get that they don't want diesels underground, but at the end of the day I would think FRA, FTA and DOT would have more jurisdiction on what happens at Penn than the local fire department.

Every commuter train between New Jersey and New York, or New York and Connecticut is considered interstate commerce... feel free to regulate what the State MTA railroads (MNRR and LIRR) use, but that's about as far as they should be able to influence.

[gokeefe]

It's very important to remember that the City of New York (via the FDNY as it's Department) isn't really regulating a locomotive. They're regulating a tunnel. The City could just as easily pass a regulation saying "no diesel electric locomotives may be operated in the hallway of an apartment building" but of course that would be irrelevant because such would never occur.

So what they can do is say what can and cannot operate in a tunnel within the authorities they have to regulate life and fire safety codes. There is a burden on interstate commerce but the authorities for doing so are similar to the ones that would govern regulation of fire safety codes in a warehouse of an interstate trucking company with drive thru bays or a large factory of a national company with yard tracks running in to buildings.

Just because it's transportation doesn't mean it's federally preempted in all cases.

[gokeefe]

Counties and cities cannot put higher emission standards into effect on individual airports, nor can they regulate trucks in interstate commerce.

You're right they can't. This is not an environmental question it's a fire and life safety code issue. Counties and cities can prescribe life safety requirements in the hangar of a local airport and they can also similarly regulate code requirements for storage of motor fuels or operation of truck maintenance areas.

The City of New York has very similar (or the same) local authorities over the tunnel and Penn Station.

[ApproachMedium]

comparing a truck on a highway or planes at an airport is apples to onions here. The FDNY has a say in what combustion vehicles are sent thru a 100 plus year old train tunnel with only 4 exit points because if said combustion vehicle has a problem and becomes a fire they are the ones who must respond to rescue the lives onboard the train that its attached to. This does not just apply to locomotives, they also inspect the tunnel itself, the exits and entry points, any security and communication systems in the tunnels and stations and i believe they also review all of the passenger rail vehicles that travel into the station as well(except private cars). More or less the non locomotive stuff is just a matter of familiarization, they cant stop them from running stuff in and out that way but passenger cars have safety and evacuation standards that they must be built to and live up to anyhow.

[DutchRailnut]

after a few Turbo train fires , NYFD is absolutely correct that safety is their concern , unless you want them on hold till first federal fire truck arrives

[David Benton]

Fair enough , the y are the ones that have to go in there , if there's a fire or accident.

[Backshophoss]

FDNY oversight of the RR's dates back to the major wreck in the tunnel on park ave,that lead to the banning of steam engines in NYC limits.
(NYC&HRRR) This also lead to the building of GCT and the 3rd rail network.
Over time NYFD has requested/mandated certain fire control systems and emergency tunnel exits.

Believe NYFD mandated bladders in fuel tanks for Dual mode power in city limits(LIRR DM30's,NJT's ALP45DP,and AMTK's P32DM)

[JimBoylan]

FDNY oversight of the RR's dates back to the major wreck in the tunnel on park ave,that lead to the banning of steam engines in NYC limits.
(NYC&HRRR) Believe NYFD mandated bladders in fuel tanks for Dual mode power in city limits(LIRR DM30's,NJT's ALP45DP,and AMTK's P32DM)

Of course, the railroads ignored that ban, the New York Central ran steam on 10th Ave. in Manhattan into the 1930s, Staten Island Rapid Transit used steam until 1948, the Long Island into Jamaica and probably Long Island City into the 1950s, and the Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal into the early 1960s! Was anything special done about New Haven, PennCentral, Metro North, and Amtrak FL-9s and RDCs?