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  • Boston to White River Junction, VT

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1530348  by charlesriverbranch
 
While walking from WTSN in Dover, NH, this morning to catch Amtrak #682 to Boston, I observed no less than three major development projects near the Dover Amtrak station. One of them looked like mixed office and residential; the others seemed to be strictly residential. There is clearly money to be made renting apartments and office space near the train station, and Dover and other communities along the Downeaster line have certainly profited by the return of the trains.

Now, another Boston and Maine route used to run from Boston through Manchester, Concord, and Lebanon, NH, to White River Junction, Vermont. In 1956, the B&M's fastest train, #307, left Boston's North Station at 1:00 PM and arrived in White River Junction at 3:55. Train #317, making all stops along the route, left Boston at 5:30 PM and got to White River at 8:50. These times compare favorably with those of today's Downeaster, whose route from Boston to Brunswick, Maine is about the same length.

Given the spectacular success of the Downeaster, I think a similar service, which I propose to call The White River Limited, between Boston and White River Junction would make sense. The upper Connecticut Valley communities as well as Concord and Manchester would likely enjoy economic benefits from frequent train service to Boston comparable to those enjoyed by the towns and cities along the Downeaster route. The more I look at this, the more it seems like a slam-dunk; only New Hampshire's perennial aversion to funding rail of any sort seems to stand in the way. What do y'all think?
 #1530354  by Greg Moore
 
Heck, once you get it to White River Junction, might as well continue to Burlington and give them more options there.
 #1530357  by Train60
 
The only near-term hope for this happening is restoration of service from North Station to Greenfield with a connection to points north. MassDOT will start a study of this route in June 2020.

Note that MassDOT did a study of service from Boston to Montreal via Springfield in 2016, the so called Northern New England Intercity Rail Initiative, and MassDOT chose not to move forward with any of the recommendations when the study was complete -- this after spending three years and $700,000 on the study.

Its important to keep in mind that MassDOT won't left a finger until they spend the time and money to execute multiple studies of a potential new rail service, so don't hold your breath. (the South Coast Rail project is a perfect example.)
 #1530541  by electricron
 
exvalley wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:54 am
superstar wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:06 pm There is the slight problem of the right of way being a bike trail from Concord to Lebanon...
Game over.
It's too bad, really.
No, it is not necessarily over!
Being a bike trail in the middle of the railroad corridor is a problem, but it is a problem that can be easily solved. DCTA rebuilt a rail line over a bike trail simply by rebuilding and moving the bike trail to the edge of the corridor. If DCTA can do so, others can too! But there was something that was done in the past that helped them, the abandoned rail corridor was “rail banked” for future rail use.
The question to be ask and answer here is was the abandoned rail corridor rail banked? If it was, reintroducing rail to the corridor should only require a new EIS and money allocated by some government agency. If not, legislation would have to be an initial first step to reintroduce rail into the now bike only corridor, followed by the typical EIS process.

Yes, the bike trail can be a problem, but not necessarily a fatal problem for reintroducing rail.
 #1530554  by shadyjay
 
I believe that line from north of Concord to the Lebanon area was land-banked, vs rail-banked.

There are a couple of places along US 4 where the highway crossed over the rail line on a bridge. Because of the trail, and for the state to eliminate some "red list" bridges off its list, the bridges were either filled in or replaced with culverts for the trail. This makes it more difficult and adds significant cost to any re-conversion of the corridor to rail.

It's too bad that Guilford abandoned it, but even worse for the state of NH to rip up the rails and put in a bike path. But I can see why they did it. I can't think of any local freight along the line (except at the two ends), and there obviously wasn't much of a demand for the route for through freight. Passenger service is all the line would be good for today, more or less, and getting NH to think that way/invest in it is a challenge. (See Lowell-Nashua-Manchester-Concord).
 #1530559  by exvalley
 
It would have been nice to see an alternative to the Vermonter. My biggest complaint with the Vermonter is that it does not connect with the Lake Shore Limited - or any of the long distance trains out of New York or Washington.

For my upcoming trip on the Lake Shore Limited, I am flying Cape Air from Lebanon, NH to Boston and picking up the train there. The other alternative for me is to drive to Springfield, Massachusetts and park my car there. But since I am flying back this doesn't really work as well.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the Vermonter originate in Montreal and terminate in Boston via Springfield. At Springfield, there would be a connection to New Haven and points south. Hopefully they figure out the logistics of building a pre-clearnace area at the Montreal train station.
 #1530563  by Arlington
 
The NNEIRI Springfield hub concept seems far more likely (BOS-SPG-WRJ-MTR)simply because it relies on States willing to invest in trains, and because it will have anchor cities at both ends.
 #1530577  by electricron
 
ryanch wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:40 pm That's interesting.

What's DCTA? Dallas transit?
https://dcta.net/
Denton County Transit Authority.
They operate buses in three cities; Denton, Lewisville, and Highland Village; and the A-Train between downtown Denton and Carrolton via Highland Village and Lewisville, to meet DART's Green Line at the Trinity Mills Station.

Not bad considering it is supported by a 1/2 cent sales tax in a County with a population less than 700,000 generating sales tax revenues around 30 million per year plus around $10 million per year from various Federal grants.

They run the trains over 21 miles of track, 19 of those miles has a bike path within or adjacent to the railroad corridor.
 #1530643  by jbvb
 
In 1950, there were three Boston - Montreal routes with day and night passenger service. Vermont preserved most of its part of the B&M - Rutland route, but NH preserved none of its. So Fitchburg - Keene - Bellows Falls - Rutland - Burlington becomes Fitchburg - Greenfield - Bellows Falls - Rutland - Burlington and then onto NECR to the border. Concord - Plymouth - Woodsville - Newport has entirely lost the Plymouth - Woodsville RoW.
Concord - Lebanon - Waterbury - St. Albans was the fastest and had the largest on-line population centers. NH still owns its abandoned RoW, so it's the best bet. But NH is broke, and the Governor and Executive Council are afraid of trains. Or at least their supporters and contributors are. Not this decade.
 #1530646  by Arlington
 
The Vermonter does SPG-WRJ in 3h03.
The East-West rail study proposes BOS-SPG in 1h30 (ish)

I'm thinking 4h30m via SPG is about the best that anyone will see in the next 50 years.
 #1530659  by exvalley
 
Arlington wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:50 am The Vermonter does SPG-WRJ in 3h03.
The East-West rail study proposes BOS-SPG in 1h30 (ish)

I'm thinking 4h30m via SPG is about the best that anyone will see in the next 50 years.
That's not very compelling when the drive is a little over two hours on a good day. A bus would be both cheaper and faster.
 #1530676  by lordsigma12345
 
exvalley wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:19 pm
Arlington wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:50 am The Vermonter does SPG-WRJ in 3h03.
The East-West rail study proposes BOS-SPG in 1h30 (ish)

I'm thinking 4h30m via SPG is about the best that anyone will see in the next 50 years.
That's not very compelling when the drive is a little over two hours on a good day. A bus would be both cheaper and faster.
The problem with Boston - Montreal is there is no direct rail route. However one could make that bus argument about even the current the Vermonter, it takes considerably longer than driving, but yet it does pretty well. I think rerouting the Vermonter to Boston (in concert with the Ethan Allen being extended to Burlington) might make sense. The Ethan Allen extension will undoubtedly gobble up some of the Vermonter's ridership from the Burlington area since the train is likely to take less time than the Vermonter to get to NYC.