For the last couple years Amtrak’s CEO has been hinting at his vision of the long distance trains. He does not buy into the notion of the long distance trains as essential transportation and instead sees value in a few of them as more a rolling museum and land cruise than essential transportation and would like to trim down to a couple of the most scenic routes where they could concentrate on making those couple routes a premium experiential product likely similar to what’s offered on the Canadian and focus the rest of the network on corridor services. His feeling seems to be that the justification for running these should not be that they are essential but more for the same reasons that we fund the Smithsonian - for historic and cultural reasons. Just assuming that his vision were to go forward (and not getting into the debate on the long distance vs corridors as there are several other threads for that), just curious what people’s thoughts are on what the best route or routes to use if Amtrak were to go forward with a premium enhanced service class. It appears Anderson has selected the Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, and California Zephyr but would you agree or disagree with his choices and if not which route or routes do you think would work best for this and what are people’s thoughts on how they should model this service concept? It is on Amtrak’s five year plan to start developing this in the current fiscal year.
Railroad Forums
Experiential service class
- Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman
I have a radical idea: how about some sort of dedicated first class lounge, or parlour car where special events such as wine tasting could occur?
Attachments:
While I think it’s a good idea, One Mass does need to take into account the people who use the LD trains as basic corridors. As long as they aren’t priced out of their usual coach seats or standard berths, have at it.
Seems like the further you get to experiential though, the further Amtrak gets into territory that is inhabited by private companies like Xanterra. It becomes a tougher sell to say that Amtrak should keep it in-house, regardless of what we here think should happen.
Seems like the further you get to experiential though, the further Amtrak gets into territory that is inhabited by private companies like Xanterra. It becomes a tougher sell to say that Amtrak should keep it in-house, regardless of what we here think should happen.
What if Amtrak bought a few cars and they rented them to private operations. They would need a couple of dome cars. They could add them to existing trains as rented, have no access to rest of train. Amtrak could get additional dollars and fill in a need for private operations. They could do anything they want with these trains - Wine tasting, leaf peeping, diner trains
That won't happen under current leadership at Amtrak, which abhors anything that smacks of yesteryear.
If anything I’d think they’d do something with one of the SSL cars.
The Western trains do seem appropriate for an enhanced class of service but all of the Eastern LD trains could also have it.
The Silver Meteor seems to do a good sleeping car business; I see 4 sleepers on some trips.
The Crescent seems capacity-constrained; even with a baggage-dorm freeing up some sleeper space, the cheapest sleeping car room on some days in 2020 is around $600 for a 600-mile trip I take.
So both of those at least should have at least a few people who would pay for an enhanced class of service. Why not add a hybrid sleeper-lounge, with high-end sleeping car rooms and a dedicated lounge for this new service?
And the Crescent is usually only 8 cars- much shorter than it could be, meaning that there is space to add cars for this.
The Silver Meteor seems to do a good sleeping car business; I see 4 sleepers on some trips.
The Crescent seems capacity-constrained; even with a baggage-dorm freeing up some sleeper space, the cheapest sleeping car room on some days in 2020 is around $600 for a 600-mile trip I take.
So both of those at least should have at least a few people who would pay for an enhanced class of service. Why not add a hybrid sleeper-lounge, with high-end sleeping car rooms and a dedicated lounge for this new service?
And the Crescent is usually only 8 cars- much shorter than it could be, meaning that there is space to add cars for this.
No reason you couldn’t sell a luxury bedroom and fresh meal on the Capitol Limited even. The experience wouldn’t be sightseeing of course - the good scenery is in the dead of night, unless you like soybeans and wind farms - but there’s still a market for people who would otherwise drive their Lexi and Cadillacs between those points.
While this video doesn't "break ground" around here, it appears objective in nature and scope:
https://youtu.be/dSw7fWCrDk0
The best takeaway is that Mr. Anderson doesn't care about any "experiental" factors, and cares only about a business enterprise that provides transportation - at a profit!
That is why I hold this "talked about" luxotrain proposal will only be just that. Possibly he has visions of contracting out to the private sector, Amtrak's "franchise" to operate these trains, but then, anyone care to ask Ed Ellis about the likelihood of success in that arena?
While it won't happen overnight, it is nevertheless time to order up the Adios drumheads, and be ready for A-Day Eve photo lines. This time, however, I'll be content with TV and YouTube news clips.
https://youtu.be/dSw7fWCrDk0
The best takeaway is that Mr. Anderson doesn't care about any "experiental" factors, and cares only about a business enterprise that provides transportation - at a profit!
That is why I hold this "talked about" luxotrain proposal will only be just that. Possibly he has visions of contracting out to the private sector, Amtrak's "franchise" to operate these trains, but then, anyone care to ask Ed Ellis about the likelihood of success in that arena?
While it won't happen overnight, it is nevertheless time to order up the Adios drumheads, and be ready for A-Day Eve photo lines. This time, however, I'll be content with TV and YouTube news clips.
We have to keep in mind that Amtrak is a governmental agency even though it pretends to be a private company.
When and where is there a public bus agency in America that provides a "luxury" service?
Where are all the "luxury" limousines you can catch a ride for twice the fare of your regular 50 seat bus?
Amtrak is competing with low frills and low fare airlines - like Southwest with just one level of service - and it's nowhere close to being first class.
That is everywhere but the NEC where Amtrak runs higher speeds Acela trains. Those Acela trains are about as close to a first class service you will ever see on Amtrak. I consider ourselves lucky that there are some full bedrooms on Amtrak trains, that they all are not just roomettes.
Most luxury trains operators around the world are ran infrequently, with less than a daily service model and in high tourist locations. This low availability gives them time to keep the luxurious appointments clean, while at the same time keep the number of rolling stock low. Is that what we want our national train carrier to be? Would New York's subway system work if it turned into a luxury train with just one train every other day?
I suggest Amtrak should never turn itself into a luxury train service.
I often read how NEC users desire even more services than they have now. New lines and more trains are always being proposed for an area with Amtrak services unmatched anywhere else. It seems Steve Jobs reply on why Apple no longer does customer surveys applies to trains as well. "Everyone wants faster, more, and lighter items for less money."
I suggest people in Tulsa, Nashville, Columbus, Boise, Laredo, Fort Myers, and all other US cities without any Amtrak trains would die for the frequency and number of trains the NEC has today. Even other cities with state subsidized services in Washington, Illinois, and California envy the amount of services available on the NEC. Yet, the NEC wants more and more. Don't they realize how good the service they get from Amtrak is?
The best answer for making Amtrak better is not cutting services anywhere, the best answer is to have services everywhere. Well, everywhere is an impossibility, but that is the goal Amtrak should be trying to achieve. The legislation that established Amtrak was made to preserve as many services in existence then as possible, not to increase the number of services everywhere practical in the future.
It took bankruptcy of Penn Central for their to be any political might to pass the legislation to create Amtrak. Specifically, primarily to preserve the NEC and secondary to appease the rest of the country the remaining intercity trains. That's why Amtrak services are so heavily centered around the NEC. But to reinforce my earlier point - Amtrak exists to preserve what is - not expanding services.
When and where is there a public bus agency in America that provides a "luxury" service?
Where are all the "luxury" limousines you can catch a ride for twice the fare of your regular 50 seat bus?
Amtrak is competing with low frills and low fare airlines - like Southwest with just one level of service - and it's nowhere close to being first class.
That is everywhere but the NEC where Amtrak runs higher speeds Acela trains. Those Acela trains are about as close to a first class service you will ever see on Amtrak. I consider ourselves lucky that there are some full bedrooms on Amtrak trains, that they all are not just roomettes.
Most luxury trains operators around the world are ran infrequently, with less than a daily service model and in high tourist locations. This low availability gives them time to keep the luxurious appointments clean, while at the same time keep the number of rolling stock low. Is that what we want our national train carrier to be? Would New York's subway system work if it turned into a luxury train with just one train every other day?
I suggest Amtrak should never turn itself into a luxury train service.
I often read how NEC users desire even more services than they have now. New lines and more trains are always being proposed for an area with Amtrak services unmatched anywhere else. It seems Steve Jobs reply on why Apple no longer does customer surveys applies to trains as well. "Everyone wants faster, more, and lighter items for less money."
I suggest people in Tulsa, Nashville, Columbus, Boise, Laredo, Fort Myers, and all other US cities without any Amtrak trains would die for the frequency and number of trains the NEC has today. Even other cities with state subsidized services in Washington, Illinois, and California envy the amount of services available on the NEC. Yet, the NEC wants more and more. Don't they realize how good the service they get from Amtrak is?
The best answer for making Amtrak better is not cutting services anywhere, the best answer is to have services everywhere. Well, everywhere is an impossibility, but that is the goal Amtrak should be trying to achieve. The legislation that established Amtrak was made to preserve as many services in existence then as possible, not to increase the number of services everywhere practical in the future.
It took bankruptcy of Penn Central for their to be any political might to pass the legislation to create Amtrak. Specifically, primarily to preserve the NEC and secondary to appease the rest of the country the remaining intercity trains. That's why Amtrak services are so heavily centered around the NEC. But to reinforce my earlier point - Amtrak exists to preserve what is - not expanding services.
Five words
Grand Luxe Tours
Iowa Pacific
Grand Luxe Tours
Iowa Pacific
~John Perkowski: Moderator: General Discussion: Locomotives, Rolling Stock, and Equipment
Assistant Administrator: Railroad.net/forums
Jeff Smith & Greg Primrose now own railroad.net!
Assistant Administrator: Railroad.net/forums
Jeff Smith & Greg Primrose now own railroad.net!
My general view (please feel free to tell me to shut up):
1. It's very unlikely for a nationwide passenger rail system to be able to exist without government involvement.
2. But government involvement is also undesirable because politicians have their own agendas, independent of the market, and often independent of what's best for passenger rail generally or the US generally, and politicians impose those agendas on recipients of government funds.
3. So whatever it takes to reduce Amtrak's need to beg for funds from Congress is desirable because the less Amtrak depends on Congress, the more it can offer rail service that the market wants, free from Congressional micromanaging.
4. So if a luxury class of service results in profits that reduce Amtrak's overall need for funds from Congress, great.
5. Plenty of luxury services have been tried both in the US and around the world so any discussion of them should acknowledge that there is data already out there that shows how luxury services are done, and their effects on the bottom line.
6. Iowa Pacific is no model of a well-run railroad so while the results of its attempts to provide luxury service should be considered, they aren't dispositive.
1. It's very unlikely for a nationwide passenger rail system to be able to exist without government involvement.
2. But government involvement is also undesirable because politicians have their own agendas, independent of the market, and often independent of what's best for passenger rail generally or the US generally, and politicians impose those agendas on recipients of government funds.
3. So whatever it takes to reduce Amtrak's need to beg for funds from Congress is desirable because the less Amtrak depends on Congress, the more it can offer rail service that the market wants, free from Congressional micromanaging.
4. So if a luxury class of service results in profits that reduce Amtrak's overall need for funds from Congress, great.
5. Plenty of luxury services have been tried both in the US and around the world so any discussion of them should acknowledge that there is data already out there that shows how luxury services are done, and their effects on the bottom line.
6. Iowa Pacific is no model of a well-run railroad so while the results of its attempts to provide luxury service should be considered, they aren't dispositive.
Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:09 am While this video doesn't "break ground" around here, it appears objective in nature and scope:Funny that when they show the LD routes being eliminated, the only one left standing is the Sunset which I thought would be the first one cut.
https://youtu.be/dSw7fWCrDk0
Sunset is the one Anderson wants to cut according to recent interviews.
Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:09 am While this video doesn't "break ground" around here, it appears objective in nature and scope:Unless Anderson is lying he really seems to want to go this way. He feels there are some trains Amtrak should always run due to their historic nature and views and it is on the five year plans. (Going by direct quotes.) He had named the builder, Zephyr, and coast starlight as trains “Amtrak should always run” but besides those and the auto train I’m not sure he feels they should run any additional.
https://youtu.be/dSw7fWCrDk0
The best takeaway is that Mr. Anderson doesn't care about any "experiental" factors, and cares only about a business enterprise that provides transportation - at a profit!
That is why I hold this "talked about" luxotrain proposal will only be just that. Possibly he has visions of contracting out to the private sector, Amtrak's "franchise" to operate these trains, but then, anyone care to ask Ed Ellis about the likelihood of success in that arena?
While it won't happen overnight, it is nevertheless time to order up the Adios drumheads, and be ready for A-Day Eve photo lines. This time, however, I'll be content with TV and YouTube news clips.