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  • LD-to-LD in Chicago

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1503580  by Tadman
 
Arborwayfan wrote:
Finally, you've said two things that are a little contradictory: you've estimated that only 50 people a day try to make the transfers you want to prohibit, and that that makes it OK to ban them. But you've also said that this is a huge problem costing Amtrak all kinds of money and goodwill.
Good question, look at this this way: I didn't say we ban anybody, just have them travel in a way that doesn't bleed the carrier. $354/night *50 people is $17,000/day.
 #1503599  by Arborwayfan
 
But Tadman, 50 people times $354/night for one particular hotel = $17,000 a day only works if (a) an average of 50 people a day transfer LD-to-LD (I'm willing to believe you and your source), (b) ALL 50 of them always miss their connections (we know that isn't true), (c) Amtrak really pays that much for each hotel room (I would expect them to have a deal with some hotel or hotels and pay less than that), (d) none of the passengers who miss connections are couples or families (I assume some are, and double-triple-quadruple occupancy is a lot cheaper than one room per passenger), (e) pax who miss connections don't get fed or need transportation to-from their hotel (maybe we count that as a wash with the cheaper room rate i assume Amtrak pays).

The big missing number here, which we've asked you several times, is how many passengers actually miss their connections. It is obviously not all of them, every day. Is it a quarter of them? A tenth of them? Half of them? A 20th of them? Can your source tell you how many people miss LD-to-LD connections every year, or an average per day? Without that number we're just guessing about how much of an issue this is.
 #1503648  by eolesen
 
The cost for the hotel might not be $354 to Amtrak, but it certainly isn't free, and doesn't include other amenities such as meals...

I work for a major employer in the Loop who brings in at least 20-30 people a day from out of state for meetings or training, and our daily cost per employee including hotel and two meals (averaged over a year) comes out to $250.

Taking a $250 hit on every misconnect is hardly inconsequential when you look at rail fares and Amtrak's non-existent profit margin on corridor or LD trips.
 #1503658  by Tadman
 
Arborwayfan wrote:
The big missing number here, which we've asked you several times, is how many passengers actually miss their connections. It is obviously not all of them, every day. Is it a quarter of them? A tenth of them? Half of them? A 20th of them? Can your source tell you how many people miss LD-to-LD connections every year, or an average per day? Without that number we're just guessing about how much of an issue this is.
These are reasonable questions but I can't get that granular for a few reasons. First, the transfer number is well known but the LD-to-LD number is not broken out at the level of my source, maybe the folks in DC know. I might be able to get that person to dig, but "hey can you spend an hour digging for a railfan?" is a bit of a tough ask, and that person has been very generous in the past already. I did some work for the company on a professional level and I don't want to cash in on that.

The thing that leads me to believe it is a bigger problem is the presence of two superliner sleepers parked on 24 for misconnects. Thats a capacity of 28 roomettes, 2 familys, 2 ADA, and 10 bedrooms. So maybe 56 comfortably every night. They wouldn't be there if it wasn't a problem. And that also doesn't alleviate the costs that much, as the cars have to be cleaned, and I bet they are required to be staffed and perhaps have a conductor under union agreements. And those people have to be fed.

I wouldn't have started this thread if the cars weren't lurking on 24 all the time, but that indicates to me that railroad runs a revenue-less sleeper train that doesn't go anywhere. That's got to have a big dollar cost and a big PR cost.
 #1503660  by Arborwayfan
 
The cars are a good hint. And I understand you can't push for details. I just wish we had the same information Amtrak has when we're debating what Amtrak should do. (I assume Amtrak knows pretty much exactly how many people are involved and what it costs, and has thought about how much of hte cost of those sleepers is keeping them ready for protecting trains against bad orders and how much is for using them as hotels, etc. Your basic idea -- that Amtrak is too optimistic about what connections it guarantees and that this costs a lot of money and goodwill -- is certainly worth thinking about.
 #1503662  by CarterB
 
Anyone know how often those two "parked" sleepers are used as a static sleeper in CHI?
 #1503718  by Tadman
 
That is something I can investigate. From my observations, they are there virtually every time I'm in the south concourse.

Shifting gears, this article was cited in another thread. In brief, Amtrak is publicly accusing NS of delaying trains on Twitter. NS is responding that Amtrak's equipment failures are creating the initial delays, leading to cascading further delays that result from a train getting out of it's scheduled slot. I have had the same experience on NS, CSX, and BNSF. BNSF is generally accepted as the best time keeper for Amtrak, but still 3/4 can be further delayed around Fort Madison and KC if it's out of slot.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-and ... lewebshare" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's germaine here because it's clear the freight hosts are frustrated with Amtrak's self-inflicted delay enough that they're threatening legal action. The initial terminal delays at Chicago are certainly included on that list. The NS main east of Chicago is one of the busiest in the United States, and well known for delays. This is why I'm so vehement about this subject. It's one that all the parties are talking about. It's serious. And it's causing problems for passengers.

When neither Amtrak, NS, nor passengers are happy, isn't it time to find a solution?
 #1503745  by mtuandrew
 
If Amtrak broke some of these connections for through-ticketing, which may be a necessity depending on their ongoing relationship with NS, what would be its plan for reestablishing them? Until there are Regionals enough to double up on LD routes, Amtrak still has to use all trains west of Chicago as de facto Regionals too.
 #1503803  by Arborwayfan
 
Fair enough, Tadman, but does the cars being there on any given day mean that stranded pax are staying in them?

I definitely agree that it would be best if Amtrak could get its trains out of the originating station on time, eliminate delays in stations along the way, etc. Some of the solutions would cost money. I wrote more in another thread.

I read the WSJ article. I didn't think NS was threatening legal action because Amtrak trains were late; I got the feeling that NS was threatening to sue Amtrak for blaming NS for delays NS said were Amtrak's fault.
 #1503826  by ExCon90
 
I don't see that it matters whether the standby cars are occupied or not; there's an opportunity cost regardless, if 3-4, 5-6, and 7-8 are selling out of sleeper space because two superliners are sitting in CUS "in case" they're needed. Of course if they are needed, the staffing costs would be additional.
 #1503834  by Arborwayfan
 
That's true, assuming that Amtrak would make a profit by adding a sleeper to a train (in lots of discussions on here over hte years people have said "why don't they add another car and get that extra fare revenue, and other people have suggested that maybe the extra cost of meals, attendant, linen washing, etc., would be more than the extra revenue).

I guess I have been assuming that those two sleepers are also the protection sleepers or that they would be around in the coach yard for some other reason, rather than that they are being kept out of trains on purpose to hold stranded pax. I am pretty sure Amtrak has decent accountants and more or less knows what its costs and revenues are for the various things it does; on the other hand, sometimes weird accounting rules get weird results, like when the City of New Orleans and the Builder used the same equipment but half the train was closed off and empty south of Chicago partly because of the way accounting charged various trains for wear and tear.

But the biggest point is that no one can really decide whether guaranteeing LD connections should end without knowing how often people miss them.
 #1503846  by Philly Amtrak Fan
 
Arborwayfan wrote:
But the biggest point is that no one can really decide whether guaranteeing LD connections should end without knowing how often people miss them.
This website can help:
https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archi ... ctions.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I set a 30 minute connection time instead of the 5 minutes it is set for.

SWC to CL, 2019 missed 4 of 75 times (5%)
SWC to LSL, 2019 missed 1 of 72 times (1%)

TE to CL, 2019 missed 2 of 75 times (2%)
TE to LSL, 2019 didn't miss any

CZ to CL, 2019 missed 31 of 71 times (44%!)
CZ to LSL, 2019 missed 8 of 68 times (12%)

But if you go back to Jan. 2018, CZ to CL missed 73 of 423 times (17%) and CZ to LSL missed 12 of 325 times (4%). It could just be a 2019 problem (or a winter problem).
 #1505232  by Tadman
 
I recently read this at another forum and I think it illustrates my theory: A man and his wife did a round trip Elkhart-Chicago-Los Angeles. The WB Capitol was 2 hours late which ruined their planned layover day in Chicago. The chief was on time both ways. The EB Capitol was super delayed into Elkhart due to freight interference, especially at the Elkhart Yard. Even though both connections were made, my common sense meter is buzzing red hot on the "bad" side.

From Elkhart, you can ride two trains into Chicago. One is referred to as "Late For Sure", the other just happens to be late often as well. Or you can drive 20 minutes to Niles, and catch the much less delay-prone Bluewater, or one of 11 South Shore trains that are almost never late.

Setting aside the "I want the romance of the long distance train for 2 hours to Chicago" garbage, why on earth force a bad connection when there are so many good ones? It's like this guy was looking for the worst possible combination and now that he's found it, he expects someone to fix it.

Just because it's in the timetable doesn't mean it's a good idea. I've learned that the hard way quite a few times and won't make that mistake again.
 #1505249  by charlesriverbranch
 
Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:I wish there was the ability for same day connections in New Orleans between the Crescent and Sunset Limited. If there was, passengers would have another option in traveling between the Northeast and the West Coast. Can you imagine that in the winter? You wouldn't have to deal with the Chicago weather. Amtrak screwed that up on both ends though.
In the 1970's, there was a through sleeper that was transferred at NO between the Crescent (still Southern) and Amtrak's Sunset Limited, providing a one-seat (bed?) ride between NYC and LA. Does anyone know how long it lasted?