Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

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Arlington
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Arlington » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:40 am

We're planning future service to Long Island. Probably Acela 2 and Amfleet Replaced.

Or is there space for a 5th & 6th track (kinda looks like it in Google Maps) from Sunnyside to Jamaica. (and then up on an aerial like the AirTrain @ Jamaica)
https://goo.gl/maps/NFQiU8atYoQ2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe the FRA need only permit catenary-over-3rd rail only where Amtrak had to pinch through stations on the existing 4 tracks.

If catenary could only go as far as Jamaica, I'd take it. Probably a good way to finally get NJT through-running to Jamaica too.
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mtuandrew
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by mtuandrew » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:22 pm

Is it too late to add third rail capability to the Avelia Liberty? It wouldn’t be the first train using that platform that can use DC. Otherwise, and I’m loath to suggest it, this is a case where a single diesel could haul an Acela between Sunnyside and wherever - Hicksville? Babylon? As far as Ronkonkoma?

A more immediate wish list, and a relatively easy project, would be an Empire Service train to Long Island. I’ll assume it has a LIRR pilot crew, with the union and rules difficulties pointed out earlier.

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Jeff Smith » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:28 pm

Third Rail for such a short distance? And you have the usual limitations.

I really doubt they’d run Avelia or Acela out there, or string catenary.
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Nasadowsk
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Nasadowsk » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:11 pm

DutchRailnut wrote:The FRA does not even like the heritage arrangement of Catenary and third rail, at same time as it is.
They sure as s**t will not allow it to be expanded.
Has the FRA ever said *why*, or is it the FRA just being stuck in the 1800s as usual?

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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by DutchRailnut » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:39 pm

safety , possibility of two power sources specially during accident
If Conductors are in charge, why are they promoted to be Engineer???

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east point
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by east point » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:49 pm

3rd rail has speed limitations that we do not remember what it is. Remember Amtrak and MNRR switches its dual modes to diesel as soon as they clear the Manhattan tunnels

andrewjw
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by andrewjw » Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:57 pm

Arlington wrote:Or is there space for a 5th & 6th track (kinda looks like it in Google Maps) from Sunnyside to Jamaica. (and then up on an aerial like the AirTrain @ Jamaica)
There are provisions, yes. This space was intended for an express subway extension from the 63rd St Tunnel to allow more express trains to Eastern Queens.

Arlington
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Arlington » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:20 pm

Perfect. I'd like to offer Queens & Nassau a mix of DM and 25kV 60Hz services on those track slots.

Within NYC
Subway-priced Jamaica-to-Empire Connection to Sunnyside, Penn, 62nd, & 125th (uppermost west side & Bronx) (6 trains per hour)

Inter-jurisdiction
NJT-priced commuter service Secaucus & Newark (Airport) (3 trains per hour)
Amtrak Empire Corridor (1 train per hour)
Keystone/NER/Acela mix (3 trains per hour)
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gokeefe
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by gokeefe » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:29 pm

Perhaps no regular service but apparently there was seasonal through service for a parlor car from Washington in 1928.
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benboston
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by benboston » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:28 am

Acela definitely should not go to Long Island because the tracks are set up for high speed travel.

452 Card
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by 452 Card » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:23 am

east point wrote:
"3rd rail has speed limitations that we do not remember what it is. Remember Amtrak and MNRR switches its dual modes to diesel as soon as they clear the Manhattan tunnels"

The reason being is this: In and around PSNY the signal system operates at 25 Hertz. After Harold, the LIRR system operates on 100hz. During the initial Dual Mode testing performed with the FL-9 locos, it was determined that the "100 Hertz territory" had the potential to scramble the cab signals to a less restrictive indication and therefor unsafe condition. And this was WAY before adding PTC into the mix. It was so costly to add EMI filters to just three locos that the decision was made from high above to just switch to diesel at the mouth of the tunnel. And as a result, the MICAS computer would kick out and need a reboot if the switchover was done over a gap. This would cause the train to go powerless for a short period, often causing great concern to 204 who would call constantly over the radio as to why the train was losing speed while going uphill waiting for MICAS to let it regain power. It all concerned gap detection. What fun!
Last edited by 452 Card on Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Arlington
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by Arlington » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:03 am

benboston wrote:Acela definitely should not go to Long Island because the tracks are set up for high speed travel.
?

I am generally approaching Amtrak's winning combination as being
1) minimal trip time,
2) minimal hassle,
3)high predictability,
4) high frequency
not necessarily speed.

The park-and-ride appeal of suburban Acela (NCR & RTE and a bit of BWI) is a powerful competitive tool vs the airlines.
"Trying to solve congestion by making roadways wider is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger pants."--Charles Marohn

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SRich
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by SRich » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:21 am

452 Card wrote:east point wrote:
"3rd rail has speed limitations that we do not remember what it is. Remember Amtrak and MNRR switches its dual modes to diesel as soon as they clear the Manhattan tunnels"

The reason being is this: In and around PSNY the signal system operates at 25 Hertz. After Harold, the LIRR system operates on 100hz. During the initial Dual Mode testing performed with the FL-9 locos, it was determined that the "100 Hertz territory" had the potential to scramble the cab signals to a less restrictive indication and therefor unsafe condition. And this was WAY before adding PTC into the mix. It was so costly to add EMI filters to just three locos that the decision was made from high above to just switch to diesel at the mouth of the tunnel. And as a result, the MICAS computer would kick out and need a reboot if the switchover was done over a gap. This would cause the train to go powerless for a short period, often causing great concern to 204 who would call constantly over the radio as to why the train was losing speed while going uphill waiting for MICAS to let it regain power. It all concerned gap detection. What fun!
You’are partly right. The signals system arround penn is indeed not 100Hz but 91,3/4 so AC traction and DC traction can be used together. 25Hz is the frequency of the 12(,5?) kV power system of catenary. If 25Hz is also used for the signal system then there is indeed a safety risk

Why should we powerswap bij penn. Amtrak can buy some DM chargers(ore use P32) and then use 3 third rail for Penn and its approach tracks and for the rest diesel.
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NIMBYkiller
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by NIMBYkiller » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:51 pm

I don't know where anyone expects frequent Amtrak service would fit in during LIRR rush hours, even with the 3rd track on the main. And the space on the main for the extra tracks is only east of Winfield, and I don't think there's space past White Pot Junction anyway.

eolesen
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Re: Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Post by eolesen » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:56 pm

Who said Amtrak would be frequent?

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