Why does the Auto-Train Service Approach being Profitable?

[mtuandrew]

So if you didn't have restrictions in Baltimore you could go right up to NJ or NY, assuming you stayed west of the Hudson, and assuming wanted to go that far.

Assuming there is clearance between cars & wires and in stations, yes. (I don’t know the clearance needed between 25kV wire and cars off the top of my head.) You also need to account for side-to-side clearance at speed.

[STrRedWolf]

How tall are the auto storage rail cars? If it's greater than 15' 6", you got problems.

[Greg Moore]

One source claims 19' 11"

[R&DB]

The Autotrain will probably never go north of WAS for other reasons than those already stated in this thread.

Height: Although I could not find the specs on the auto racks, they are about 12-18" taller than the Superliners (16'2") Since Amtrak limits heights for patron's cars for tri-rack is 56" this probably about right. So no Amtrak NEC raceway (15'6") for them. It would be all CSX all the way. They would have to avoid direct route through Baltimore as the tunnel CSX uses there can't even handle their own double-stack freight.

Turn-around: Current turn-around is 7 hours to unload, clean the train, restock, inspect equipment, fuel, load, assemble and test. If you run it 4 or 5 hours further north, there would not be enough time without adding 2 more trainsets. (unlikely) Beside that there is no room at Lorton for another train. As it is there is barely room for one.

The Potomac River: CSX owns the only rail bridge across the river east of Harpers Ferry,WV. They allocate a certain number of time slots to Amtrak each day. Between all the Amtrak services that run south of WAS, there are no more slots available.

Crew: The Autotrain uses 2 crews each way. If you lengthen the run from 17 to 21/22 hours, a second crew change would be needed if they run late. Also if they decide to use Viewliner equipment to access the NEC they will need crews qualified for it, more cost.

Food Service: The added time would probably require an additional lunch. Amtrak says they lose money on food service (I don't believe it) and every meal on Auto train is included.

Speed: The only way to get Autotrain north of WAS is for Amtrak/CSX to build a new 2-track Potomac bridge (separate freight and passenger) so they can run up the NEC using new shorter height auto racks and Viewliner equipment (with engine change at WAS). They would not benefit much from the higher speed track on the NEC as the auto racks are only designed for 79 mph. (CSX limits racks to 60 mph system-wide) The NEC is PACKED with trains in the late afternoon, so a 4 pm departure #53 from the New York area would be suspect. (Acela folks won't like getting their speed cut in half by a 70 mph Autotrain blocking the route)

Length: Since Viewliners do not handle as many patrons as Superliners, they would have to make the train longer to serve the same # of patrons. CSX limits the train to it's current length, so that's no go.

Have a nice day.

[east point]

Lets see. Want to take Auto train north of Washington ?
1. Get enough spare equipment without taking any from any other service.
2. Get long bridge expanded to 4 tracks.
3. Get permission from CSX to use the rebuilt Virginia Ave tunnel
4. Provide somewhere to change loco to electric motor.
5. Build the new 4 bore B & P tunnel
6. Expand the tunnel north of BAL station for Auto racks
7. Solve PHL clearance problems by either increasing clearances thru station or get CSX to allow it to use high line. Then eigher will have to keep diesels or restore CAT to high line ?
8. Rebuild all CAT on NEC to provide for rack clearances.

No problem ? Maybe in 50 years ? ? ?

[R&DB]

east point wrote:

No problem ? Maybe in 50 years ? ? ?

Yep, my point exactly!

[Tadman]

MOD NOTE: WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING A NORTHERLY EXTENSION HERE. THERE IS ALREADY A THREAD FOR THAT. THANK YOU.

[Jeff Smith]

MOD NOTE: WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING A NORTHERLY EXTENSION HERE. THERE IS ALREADY A THREAD FOR THAT. THANK YOU.

I think that thread was folded into the "Master" thread. But at this point, I think, as Tadman notes, that we've explored the topic ad nauseum. The AT is pretty much a finely tuned machine (well, maybe not, but you know what I mean) at just the right locations and length. Unless CSX sells the trackage, and said trackage is upgraded, with all noted hurdles overcome, it's not going to happen.

So while we won't impose a ban on discussion of AT extension a la the Turboliners (just. don't. go. there!) I'd say we have a moratorium on it.

The profitability discussion, though, is fine. That was a good discussion. So I'll reopen this for that. But further discussion of extensions will be deleted. PM us if you have a question.

Thanks!

Jeff

[Greg Moore]

Wait, did you just suggest a Turboliner Autotrain?

Ducks and runs.

Seriously, I agree it would be nice to be able to replicate the Autotrain solution, but not sure you can improve the current setup.

About the ONLY thing I could think of is ending up with a train from further west (south of Chicago) that arrives right after the current one leaves.

[mtuandrew]

Wait, did you just suggest a Turboliner Autotrain?

Ducks and runs.

Otto_Angry.gif needs to be a thing for any Turboliner references

Seriously, I agree it would be nice to be able to replicate the Autotrain solution, but not sure you can improve the current setup.

About the ONLY thing I could think of is ending up with a train from further west (south of Chicago) that arrives right after the current one leaves.

If possible, closer to Chicago. Beech Grove isn’t on the right line, but would be the right location if it were!

That Midwest extension was what got Auto-Train in trouble though, so good luck getting Congress to sign off on a new Amtrak Auto Train even if CSX or NS played along. Definitely wouldn’t be profitable in the near term either, which is the whole point of this thread.

[Gilbert B Norman]

May one who has "been there done that" twenty four times in this life reiterate:

If such "Auto-Train Service" we're to be tried out, my candidates would be Galesburg-Irondale, Galesburg-La Junta, and Albuquerque-San Bernardino. I've been on too many existing Auto-Trains to know that "overnight is enough" and "arewethereyetitis" is quite endemic on board if not there by Noon.

[David Benton]

does anyone know what the 2 conductors do on the Auto -Train ? Do they have to check the customers tickets, I presume there is already a preboarding check, tied to the car loading process.

[electricron]

does anyone know what the 2 conductors do on the Auto -Train ? Do they have to check the customers tickets, I presume there is already a preboarding check, tied to the car loading process.

Conductors do more than just check that passengers have tickets. They know the route as well as the engineer, and double check signals along the route. They are responsible for the well being and health of their passengers, which makes them the police, the medic, and information clerk on the train. If passenger becomes too drunk, unruly, or ill; it's the conductor who kicks them off the train or calls 911 for the next station to get help. These are all chores an engineer can't do from the cab of the locomotive.

[Jeff Smith]

<cough> profitability <cough>

[sullysullinburg]

There’s not a ton of things that can really be done to increase the profitability of the AT in its current form. The route is pretty well set. CSX will not allow a longer train. The only real options are to raise prices or cut back on some on board amenities. As long as the train is consistently selling out, I vote they raise prices. Even by a couple of percent. I’m not sure how far it is in the hole but a $5 hike in all the fairs might put them in the black. If anyone has solid numbers on revenues, expenses and ridership (of both people and autos), I’m sure we could quickly do the math and find how much they would need to raise fairs by to reach a break even point.