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  • AMTRAK NEC: Springfield Shuttle/Regional/Valley Flyer/Inland Routing

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1490921  by daybeers
 
I think the case for keeping the Meriden stop along the Vermonter's route all depends on ridership of the Vermonter at Meriden. Yes, there are multiple highways and large state routes in/around Meriden, and Wesleyan is right next door. I personally think it should be kept. And yes, I do think skipping Berlin and Wallingford will become a permanent change.

Certainly Hartford isn't getting taken off the schedule. Also, I've never understood why the Vermonter skips Windsor and serves Windsor Locks instead.

njt/mnrrbuff: Why do you think that after the double track is restored, including along the viaduct in Hartford, that not every CTrail train will continue north to Springfield? I know CTDOT plans to eventually buy their own equipment, and who knows, the I-84 Hartford Project may take just as long.
 #1490926  by Traingeek3629
 
leviramsey wrote:
Traingeek3629 wrote: P.S. Why is that line so loopy after Palmer? If I had built the line it would have gone through Spencer and Leicester instead of Charlton.
Have you ever driven through there? From Worcester to the East Brookfield Flats along Route 9, it's basically continuous hills.
No, if I am going to Boston I take 95, or 395/84 to 90.
njt/mnrrbuff wrote:A general rule of thumb-lets say if a person lives in a town on a passenger rail route that might have a train station but not many trains stopping there while more trains stop in a larger town on that same line very close by-those people will drive to the larger town for more train service. The line could be dead straight between the station in a smaller and larger town and people will still drive to the larger town. Look at Windsor Ct-there are people who live there who are heading to NYC and when they take the train, they will probably drive instead to Hartford for more service. Even after all of the double track is restored, not every Ctrail train will continue north of Hartford. Now for any Amtrak service running to Greenfield, it might seem like a straight shot but the speeds are slow in many areas along the Knowledge Corridor. I rode the Vermonter three years ago over the Knowledge Corridor and we were crawling in many spots. Hopefully, there will be more speed restrictions lifted along there. I think one of the slowest stretches is between Holyoke and Springfield. If you live around Holyoke, you are probably better off getting the train in SPG. Back to the example of the distance from Charlton to Worcester, it's 15 miles between both cities and probably many people will drive to Worcester to get MBTA when heading to Boston.
Many people on MNR's Hudson Line who live in/closer to Cortlandt drive to Croton-Harmon because there are more trains there, even if most of them are locals. People in Madison (my hometown) drive to NH most of the time rather than taking SLE because there are more trains. Same thing with people in Warwick on the Providence Line, Patterson on the Harlem Line, and Weston on the Green Line/Fitchburg Line. As for speeds on the Knowledge Corridor, it is a reasonable speed now north of Springfield and more upgrades will probably be made. Holyoke's ridership is pitiful, with around 4 people per day. I suspect with two more trains it will likely be about 20 per day. Northampton gets great ridership, with 54 per day, and the new trains could make it around 110 per day.

For the record, Meriden's Vermonter Ridership is only 434 in 2017. Not great. Wallingford had 424, and Berlin had 361. I saw the northbound Vermonter in Meriden once, on a Sunday and 4 people got on going north. Keep in mind, people from Wallingford might drive to Meriden for the Vermonter now, so that may go up.
 #1490927  by daybeers
 
Traingeek3629 wrote:For the record, Meriden's Vermonter Ridership is only 434 in 2017. Not great. Wallingford had 424, and Berlin had 361. I saw the northbound Vermonter in Meriden once, on a Sunday and 4 people got on going north. Keep in mind, people from Wallingford might drive to Meriden for the Vermonter now, so that may go up.
I believe the Vermonter was also affected by the many bustitutions that happened in 2017 for the Hartford Line track work.
 #1490928  by njtmnrrbuff
 
That is true about many people living in Cortlandt who drive to Croton Harmon for more service. I think the issue with parking at Croton Harmon is that it's not cheap to park there but many people don't mind paying the extra. I think along Shore Line East, many people will drive to New Haven anyway. I'm not surprised about that. Shore Line East's off peak and weekend ridership isn't very good. In New Jersey Transit land, it's not unusual for people who are living along the south end of the Coastline to drive up to either Aberdeen-Matawan or even Metropark for more frequent and faster service. South of Long Branch, not only do the trains run infrequently outside of rush hour. It's a very slow ride when you take a local making the time not competitive with driving. There are many people who live along the Morris and Essex Line who will drive to Harrison and take the Path. The Morris & Essex Line is a pretty slow route and when you take a local train, it takes forever. Path runs more than NJT.

That's too bad about Holyoke's ridership. That city is struggling economically and has potential to be better than what it is and that may drive people away from boarding a train there, especially if it's only one train each way. More trains, I could see the ridership numbers going up.
 #1490931  by lordsigma12345
 
Interesting evening tonight. I was on 176 heading home from NYP and it was running 40+ mins late thanks to Norfolk Southern. 476 Shuttle did not wait and I got bumped to CTrail train 4414. According to the CTrail conductor this has been a nearly daily occurrence for 176, which originates in Roanoke, lately. 4414 was using the SLE Mafersa equipment. There were some annoyed passengers on board due to the less comfortable commuter equipment being used. While it is true that all the trains on the line are the same cost and yes you could also wait at NHV for 494 if you really wanted the Amtrak equipment, I can see this becoming a point of contention between Amtrak and CTDOT if Amtrak starts getting complaints from Amtrak paying customers ending up on commuter equipment. While meanwhile Amtrak is having 476 not wait in order to keep commuter rail customers happy. I guess its a complication of the way the line is operated....
 #1490935  by Arlington
 
daybeers wrote:I've never understood why the Vermonter skips Windsor and serves Windsor Locks instead
Windsor Locks better spaced midway between Hartford and Springfield, and, given ideal I-91 access, makes a better kiss-and-ride spot for both sides of the river.
 #1490936  by lordsigma12345
 
Arlington wrote:
daybeers wrote:I've never understood why the Vermonter skips Windsor and serves Windsor Locks instead
Windsor Locks better spaced midway between Hartford and Springfield, and, given ideal I-91 access, makes a better kiss-and-ride spot for both sides of the river.
Additionally its proximity to Bradley Airport - although CTDOT opted to have the Bradley shuttle go from Hartford rather than WNL.
 #1490938  by daybeers
 
lordsigma12345 wrote:Interesting evening tonight. I was on 176 heading home from NYP and it was running 40+ mins late thanks to Norfolk Southern. 476 Shuttle did not wait and I got bumped to CTrail train 4414. According to the CTrail conductor this has been a nearly daily occurrence for 176, which originates in Roanoke, lately. 4414 was using the SLE Mafersa equipment. There were some annoyed passengers on board due to the less comfortable commuter equipment being used. While it is true that all the trains on the line are the same cost and yes you could also wait at NHV for 494 if you really wanted the Amtrak equipment, I can see this becoming a point of contention between Amtrak and CTDOT if Amtrak starts getting complaints from Amtrak paying customers ending up on commuter equipment. While meanwhile Amtrak is having 476 not wait in order to keep commuter rail customers happy. I guess its a complication of the way the line is operated....
Hmm...I mean it makes sense, as 176 departed Bridgeport 49 minutes late. Was 4414 at least waiting across the platform when you arrived at NHV? I haven't gotten the chance to ride a CTrail train, but have ridden the shuttles numerous times, so I don't know how big of a difference there is between the Amfleet and the MBB coach seating. I still don't understand why the Hartford Line sometimes uses SLE equipment however. I imagine those cars are even less comfortable than the refurbished MBB coaches.
 #1490953  by gregorygrice
 
daybeers wrote:
lordsigma12345 wrote:Interesting evening tonight. I was on 176 heading home from NYP and it was running 40+ mins late thanks to Norfolk Southern. 476 Shuttle did not wait and I got bumped to CTrail train 4414. According to the CTrail conductor this has been a nearly daily occurrence for 176, which originates in Roanoke, lately. 4414 was using the SLE Mafersa equipment. There were some annoyed passengers on board due to the less comfortable commuter equipment being used. While it is true that all the trains on the line are the same cost and yes you could also wait at NHV for 494 if you really wanted the Amtrak equipment, I can see this becoming a point of contention between Amtrak and CTDOT if Amtrak starts getting complaints from Amtrak paying customers ending up on commuter equipment. While meanwhile Amtrak is having 476 not wait in order to keep commuter rail customers happy. I guess its a complication of the way the line is operated....
Hmm...I mean it makes sense, as 176 departed Bridgeport 49 minutes late. Was 4414 at least waiting across the platform when you arrived at NHV? I haven't gotten the chance to ride a CTrail train, but have ridden the shuttles numerous times, so I don't know how big of a difference there is between the Amfleet and the MBB coach seating. I still don't understand why the Hartford Line sometimes uses SLE equipment however. I imagine those cars are even less comfortable than the refurbished MBB coaches.
All SLE and Hartford Line equipment is pooled. Even though Mafersa equipment is mainly kept on SLE trains and MBB equipment is mainly kept on Hartford Line trains, the Hartford Line can see any equipment used. Whenever a Hartford Line trainset is shopped or needs to be worked on, a spare Mafersa set is dispatched. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Based on several customer comments, the Mafersa cars are WAY better than the MBB coaches. They're definitely not Amfleets, but they offer way more than the MBB cars do. The only downside is the isle space as the seating arrangement in the Mafersa cars are 3x2 compared to the 2x2 seating in the MBB cars.

Also, I don't know what Amtrak's policy is for holding trains but I have seen them hold their shuttles for late connecting Regionals even when they're 40+ mins late. Maybe it depends on passenger count? Who knows.
 #1490958  by daybeers
 
Interesting. When you say the Mafersa cars "offer way more than the MBB cars do", what exactly do you mean? Comfort? Larger windows?

A question about Amtrak reservations: say I had a ticket for Shuttle #471 from Hartford to connect with Northeast Regional #171, but the day of, I decided I wanted to get to New Haven a little earlier to explore a bit. I could take CTrail #4401, or if I wanted to go even earlier, Shuttle #495. Would the conductor let me continue on the trip if I just had my ticket for 471 and 171? When you book a through Amtrak ticket, the Shuttle gets bundled with the Regional and you get a little bit knocked off the price. For example, WAS to NHV is $72, but WAS to HFD is $74, so a savings of $6 over the regular Shuttle fare. Now that's not that much, but I wouldn't want to pay more if I already had a ticket for a later train. I would guess the CTrail crew would allow me to continue, but the crew on 495 might give me some trouble because it's not the same train. Would they still scan the ticket? If they didn't, would my reservation actually be cancelled when I get on Regional #171 because I technically was a "no-show" for #471? (I've always thought that was a silly Amtrak rule, by the way).
 #1490960  by gregorygrice
 
daybeers wrote:Interesting. When you say the Mafersa cars "offer way more than the MBB cars do", what exactly do you mean? Comfort? Larger windows?

A question about Amtrak reservations: say I had a ticket for Shuttle #471 from Hartford to connect with Northeast Regional #171, but the day of, I decided I wanted to get to New Haven a little earlier to explore a bit. I could take CTrail #4401, or if I wanted to go even earlier, Shuttle #495. Would the conductor let me continue on the trip if I just had my ticket for 471 and 171? When you book a through Amtrak ticket, the Shuttle gets bundled with the Regional and you get a little bit knocked off the price. For example, WAS to NHV is $72, but WAS to HFD is $74, so a savings of $6 over the regular Shuttle fare. Now that's not that much, but I wouldn't want to pay more if I already had a ticket for a later train. I would guess the CTrail crew would allow me to continue, but the crew on 495 might give me some trouble because it's not the same train. Would they still scan the ticket? If they didn't, would my reservation actually be cancelled when I get on Regional #171 because I technically was a "no-show" for #471? (I've always thought that was a silly Amtrak rule, by the way).
More comfortable seating, tables, garbage receptacles at the ends of each car, bigger restroom and just an overall a much smoother ride since the build quality of the car is better.


And to your second question, absolutely! Any Amtrak ticket is valid on any CTrail train as long as its not expired and hasn't been lifted (scanned & used) already. Ive seen several people that will get to the station early and take CTrail so that they don't have to wait at a station that doesn't have amenities like a heated waiting area or a place to grab a bite.
 #1490962  by Rockingham Racer
 
lordsigma12345 wrote:Interesting evening tonight. I was on 176 heading home from NYP and it was running 40+ mins late thanks to Norfolk Southern. 476 Shuttle did not wait and I got bumped to CTrail train 4414. According to the CTrail conductor this has been a nearly daily occurrence for 176, which originates in Roanoke, lately. 4414 was using the SLE Mafersa equipment. There were some annoyed passengers on board due to the less comfortable commuter equipment being used. While it is true that all the trains on the line are the same cost and yes you could also wait at NHV for 494 if you really wanted the Amtrak equipment, I can see this becoming a point of contention between Amtrak and CTDOT if Amtrak starts getting complaints from Amtrak paying customers ending up on commuter equipment. While meanwhile Amtrak is having 476 not wait in order to keep commuter rail customers happy. I guess its a complication of the way the line is operated....
I think the point of contention should be between NS and Amtrak. Then, there wouldn't be any point of contention in CT. Go to where the problem originates, IOW.
 #1490969  by lordsigma12345
 
That's very true and ultimately NS was the problem here. But Im just saying that some Amtrak passengers who do not understand the cross honoring of tickets and that Amtrak's trains also have to accommodate commuter rail passengers on this line could be annoyed by "downgrading" to commuter equipment. I will say that I personally don't care and they made the right call in this case.. we were 40 minutes late and didn't have to wait long at all for 4414 and they did have it right across the platform (though I went into the station quick to grab a fountain drink.) However there was a lady quite annoyed and was saying she was going to ask Amtrak for a refund. I tried to explain that the train price between CTrail and the Shuttles is the same and that if she bought an Amtrak ticket from New Haven to hartford it would be the same price, but she didnt seem to believe me.

I guess the possible contention I'm referring to is this sort of puts Amtrak into a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. If you don't wait you risk annoying passengers due to either having to wait at NHV or getting "downgraded" to commuter equipment. If you do wait you risk annoying commuter rail customers along the route who are using that train. If Amtrak starts to get a lot of complaints from its own customers it could lead to problems.. I think most frequent riders on the line know the drill and understand the whole CTrail/Amtrak thing but there will be some that don't..
 #1490974  by shadyjay
 
Late connections between the mainline trains and the shuttles is just another reason why the New Haven-Springfield line should be operated independently of the mainline NEC (VA-DC-NYP-BOS). If it's going to be used as a true commuter line, not just between NHV-HFD-SPG, but also from points south (such as Bridgeport, Stamford, etc), then some of those departures from NHV should not rely on waiting for a train from DC or Virginia.

At least, in the example above, a shuttle left NHV before the NEC train it connects from, arrived in NHV. That 40-minute wait would've pissed off anyone trying to use the Hartford Line for commuting. And since none of the intermediate stations have any enclosed waiting room anymore (except the "up and over"), that'd be a long cold wait come this winter. So kudos for the decision to be made to leave without the connecting passengers. Get 'em on a later train!

In a perfect world, the 400-series shuttles would be abolished, Amtrak would continue with its through trains from VT and SPG to points south, and for passengers from NEC trains wishing to connect at NHV to "inland points", a note in the timetable should suffice: "Connecting local service to Hartford, Springfield, and intermediate stations provided by CTRail Hartford Line".
 #1490976  by lordsigma12345
 
daybeers wrote:Interesting. When you say the Mafersa cars "offer way more than the MBB cars do", what exactly do you mean? Comfort? Larger windows?

A question about Amtrak reservations: say I had a ticket for Shuttle #471 from Hartford to connect with Northeast Regional #171, but the day of, I decided I wanted to get to New Haven a little earlier to explore a bit. I could take CTrail #4401, or if I wanted to go even earlier, Shuttle #495. Would the conductor let me continue on the trip if I just had my ticket for 471 and 171? When you book a through Amtrak ticket, the Shuttle gets bundled with the Regional and you get a little bit knocked off the price. For example, WAS to NHV is $72, but WAS to HFD is $74, so a savings of $6 over the regular Shuttle fare. Now that's not that much, but I wouldn't want to pay more if I already had a ticket for a later train. I would guess the CTrail crew would allow me to continue, but the crew on 495 might give me some trouble because it's not the same train. Would they still scan the ticket? If they didn't, would my reservation actually be cancelled when I get on Regional #171 because I technically was a "no-show" for #471? (I've always thought that was a silly Amtrak rule, by the way).
I've heard mixed messages about this. I know with Amtrak tickets if you want to switch from a Shuttle to another Shuttle you are supposed to alter the reservation but with the flat fares it won't cost you anything as long as its done before boarding. For CTrail I've heard some people say you can just board any CTrail train with any Amtrak ticket as long as its for that day, but then I've also heard some say that there's fine print and that Amtrak tickets are only supposed to be used on CTrail if you miss your train. IE they are good on CTrail for a certain number of hours after the scheduled departure time on your Amtrak ticket. I dont know which is the official policy and it could depend on what conductor you get!
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