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Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1443796  by bdawe
 
The scenario I could imagine MCS being especially useful would be one where Ontario's Toronto-Windsor HSR study actually amounts to something. Given that the Michigan Central Tunnel is not class-1 owned (mostly owned by a company called "Borealis Transportation"), it would seem possible that it could be repurposed for passenger rail if the tracks ever reached Windsor
 #1443809  by mdvle
 
Borealis Transportation renamed itself 2 weeks ago, it is now OMERS Infrastructure.

OMERS is the Ontario Municipal Employee pension plan.
 #1443817  by mtuandrew
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:what does lifting an object higher have to with getting from the Airport to Downtown? :-D
:P
Tadman wrote:It's worth noting the new condition of Detroit. Over the last five years, the place has gone bonkers with growth. See my map below:

https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5A60B3ED" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The red area has seen crazy growth. That's downtown. The purple area is seeing decent growth. The blue line is the Q_train. The orange line is Amtrak. The amtrak station is the X. GM is GM headquarters. GTW is the former Brush Street Station, FSUD is the former Fort Street Station. Neither is still there, nor are the buildings or tracks. As you can see, MCS and Amtrak are the only stations left and neither is within a mile of GM (the center of Detroit).
Interesting to note that at one point, NYCRR and the Detroit city fathers had considered a boulevard from MCS to roundly the Wayne State University campus. Maybe with real estate off Woodward still sluggish, now's the time for the Morouns to reimagine that proposal?
bdawe wrote:Given that the Michigan Central Tunnel is not class-1 owned (mostly owned by a company called "Borealis Transportation")
Huh, learn something new everyday. Residue from Conrail?
 #1443818  by gokeefe
 
Tadman wrote:As you can see, MCS and Amtrak are the only stations left and neither is within a mile of GM (the center of Detroit).
Well, MCS certainly wins on proximity. Interesting advantage and also a contrast to the situation in Buffalo where the existing Amtrak station was much closer to downtown.
 #1443834  by mtuandrew
 
gokeefe wrote:Well, MCS certainly wins on proximity.
In raw distance to Campus Martius, yes, but the Amtrak station wins on attractions within walking distance and ease of access to downtown via Q Line. When you can convince Detroit to build a Michigan Avenue - Vernor Highway line, we'll talk!
 #1443848  by bdawe
 
Apperently CN & CP bought the tunnel form Conrail, and then CN sold out to Borealis who then entered into a partnership with CP to build a new doublestack tunnel and convert the old tunnel to a truck tunnel. This was scuppered after the Canadian Government approved the Gordie Howe Bridge, and CP sold most of their interest in the tunnel to Borealis
 #1443872  by Gilbert B Norman
 
The Homecoming Dinner went off last night:

Fair Use:
.DETROIT-- For the first time since the 1980s, Michigan Central Station opened its doors to hundreds of guests.


The iconic Detroit building hosted the fourth annual Detroit Homecoming, an event produced by Crain's Communications Inc., the publisher of Crain's Detroit Business.

Detroit Homecoming invites hundreds of native Detroit business leaders from across the country back to Detroit to"re-engage and invest" in the city's future.

Lights welcomed guests Wednesday night for a kickoff dinner.
Now I think there are sociological issues that must be addressed when discussing Detroit's future passenger rail needs.

As this New York Times Opinion piece points out, not all of Detroit shares in the resurgence addressed in our discussion, or better put areas where Mr. Dunville and Mr. Me do not go lurking when we are there.

Fair Use:
..We are told, however, that it is a new day, that Detroit is no longer in decline. In a speech at the Mackinac Policy Conference this year, Mayor Duggan reported: “We are in the first period of growth in 50 or 60 years. People are moving back.”

What this comeback story omits is that although Detroit is 143 square miles, only 7.2 square miles are part of the revival. The real story is a tale of two cities. In downtown and surrounding areas, developers receive tax breaks, incentives and subsidies to renovate the portion of the city inhabited by newcomers. Meanwhile, the neighborhoods peopled by the residents who have been holding the city together through its economic turmoil are subject to monumental tax injustice.
When I was there last October, a DSO patron shared with me that Detroit "has much more acreage than any other city in the Reviving Rust Belt" (the best I remember her statement). As The Times' columnist points out, the revival comprises some 7.2 Sq miles of Detroit's 143.

The fact remains that Detroit will never have a 3M population again and must accept that it's current 710K is what it will have. Painful as it may be, Detroit will have to "decorporate" square mileage to that, say, of Cleveland (82) or Pittsburgh (58). That means no more city services - no cops, no firefighters, no water, no sewage, no traffic lights, no streetlights. In short a TS Eliott "Wasteland".
 #1443877  by gokeefe
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:The fact remains that Detroit will never have a 3M population again and must accept that it's current 710K is what it will have. Painful as it may be, Detroit will have to "decorporate" square mileage to that, say, of Cleveland or Pittsburgh. That means no more city services - no cops, no firefighters, no water, no sewage, no traffic lights, no streetlights. In short a TS Eliott "Wasteland".
This suggestion goes against the prevailing trend of reurbanization. I doubt very much that it will come to fruition. Detroit's greatest asset is in fact its large area that can be rezoned, redeveloped and renewed. There are few places in the United States where a large mega-city could be built from scratch. Detroit is one of them and I think that with the right mix of conditions that it could happen.
 #1444570  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Much as I enjoy my visits to hear the Detroit Symphony,
I have two words of advice for those who hold that an Amazon HQ2 could be built using MCS as the catalyst for such; forget it.

As this Fair Use quotation from the linked CNBC article notes, Amazon wants 500K Sq Ft - doubt if it's there in the existing MCS structure:
..The company said its new second headquarters would initially need more than 500,000 square feet and up to 8 million square feet beyond 2027.
From the "Box Score" within the article, the only Amazon criteria Detroit meets is an international airport (even if it's more Delta's "change at Jamaica" than anything else). The absence of World Class university is questionable. This Illini will certainly give the Wolves credit for being that - and it's only forty miles away.

I still hold Detroit's best hope for success is to reduce its "Corporation Footprint" from the present 105 Sq. Mi. to about 60. That's big enough for the present 715K population. What happens to the area abandoned is what happens...urban farmland, some new incorporated municipalities, prairie....fun to speculate.

Finally, to close rail related, mass transportation is an Amazon criteria, but intercity rail is not. Just recognition of "Facts of Life", or a significant omission?
 #1444582  by Tadman
 
On the face, Mr. Norman is right, but there are a few things going for Detroit:

1. They got their financial house in order compared to Chicago.
2. MCS may not have all the space they need, but Amazon could build near/around it. There is a lot of marginally used or empty space adjacent. You could also build over the NS or the approach tracks.
3. The Delta terminal at Detroit is really nice. It wouldn't be far fetched to see this be an O&D terminal rather than transfer.
4. The bones are there for true high speed to Toronto and Chicago

Here's the best part: if they bought MCS and turned it (and five surrounding acres) into Amazon headquarters, you'd have a new traffic center that could be great for placing a train station into. Ergo, trains come back to MCS.

It's a lot better than Maroun's idea of the gov't running lots of trains just to subsidize his building.
 #1444607  by mtuandrew
 
Matty Maroun has a great deal of business ideas based on government subsidy and/or buyout of Maroun properties. If he and the city can attract Amazon though, that would be a huge catch for the city and the region. (One large enough to finally justify DET-ARB commuter rail and perhaps DET-LNS Spartan Service, and to help subsidize redevelopment of Mr. Norman's additional 45 sq mi within the existing City of Detroit.)
 #1444660  by gokeefe
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Finally, to close rail related, mass transportation is an Amazon criteria, but intercity rail is not. Just recognition of "Facts of Life", or a significant omission?
Door #3: Author considers term to be all inclusive.
 #1444828  by dowlingm
 
gokeefe wrote:
Gilbert B Norman wrote:The fact remains that Detroit will never have a 3M population again and must accept that it's current 710K is what it will have. Painful as it may be, Detroit will have to "decorporate" square mileage to that, say, of Cleveland or Pittsburgh. That means no more city services - no cops, no firefighters, no water, no sewage, no traffic lights, no streetlights. In short a TS Eliott "Wasteland".
This suggestion goes against the prevailing trend of reurbanization. I doubt very much that it will come to fruition. Detroit's greatest asset is in fact its large area that can be rezoned, redeveloped and renewed. There are few places in the United States where a large mega-city could be built from scratch. Detroit is one of them and I think that with the right mix of conditions that it could happen.
To be fair, this has been proposed before http://robocop.wikia.com/wiki/Delta_City" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but we haven't gotten a deployment ready ED-209 yet.
 #1466246  by Gilbert B Norman
 
The latest proposal to redevelop Michigan Central Station comes from Ford Motor Company to establish a (sort of) downtown corporate campus:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep. ... /442416002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fair Use:
..The price tag isn't the only question that will determine whether Ford actually buys the old train station from current owner Manuel (Matty) Moroun, who also owns the Ambassador Bridge. Ford's interest in the station also has to make sense in terms of the automaker's overall strategic goals. But cost is clearly a major factor in any deal for the train station
Ford obviously accepts that the young talent they need to attract wants to live downtown and not in "way out" Dearborn. As the article suggests, perhaps the former public areas could be used for again public use, with shops, restaurants, and of course a Ford display area (with dealers of course on hand to happily "take your order").

But one thing that does not appear to be on the agenda is any kind of use as a passenger rail facility.

With the high visibility that the structure has from I-75 approaching or leaving town, likely the largest Ford logo one ever did see will be atop.
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