Amtrak adds Acela RT - Nightly Premium Service

[Backshophoss]

Finding a place to park an Acela set at Stamford or New Haven might be difficult at best unless you want to
tie up a platform track overnight for the set's layover. The yards at both locations are full already.

[ThirdRail7]

I'm certain there are cogent reasons not readilly visible to the railfan community and as such I shall defer to Mr. Third Rail, but one must wonder why existing BOS-NYP #2193 could not be extended to WAS roundly on the proposed 2175 schedule. Presently 2193 leaves BOS 520P arrives NYP 905P. There would likely have to be a little "juggling" in order to allow more than ten minutes of station time at NYP.

Equipment arriving NYP on proposed 2128 would protect whatever 2193 previously protected; equipment would remain "balanced".

I'm sure this was considered; they ain't dum-dums @ 60 Mass; I knew enough of 'em along the way to affirm such is the case.

That's exactly the plan, Mr Gilbert B Norman. 2193 is the new 2175, extended to WAS. it is being used to balance WAS who will lose a set to 2128, which balances 2193 in NYP. You still have it after all these years away from the industry! It's like riding a bike!

That's an interesting concept in principle. I've always wondered how many corridor passengers live on the other side of town and would choose train over car if they could get closer service.

I agree... you'd expect that New Rochelle and Stamford would generate some Acela ridership to/from Philadelphia and points south with an additional early morning or late evening trip, especially with all the corporate offices within walking distance of the Stamford station. But in addition to the need to negotiate slots with Metro-North, I believe that extending a Washington-New York train beyond Penn Station would incur the cost of an additional operating crew, since engineers and conductors don't work through between the ex-PRR and ex-NH territories.

While an extension of certain late night corridor trains to New Haven might make sense, operationally it would be hard to do, between MNRR trackage rights, eqiupment balancing, and operating cost.

MNRR trackage rights, eqiupment balancing, and operating cost.

Since these are off-peak trains full of Connecticut voters that we're talking about, can we expect the MNRR to be less concerned operationally and more disposed politically?

This is largely off topic, but running an Acela into STM, turning and coming right back is a waste of manpower and resources. It also does nothing to balance the ridership unless you're going to send a train the next day to retrieve the riders you left the day before. Therefore, the next logical move is it to operate to NHV or BOS. Leaving it in NHV is not a good idea since there are no facilities in place to diagnose, repair or maintain ACELA sets. These aren't everyday trains. They require special attention.

That leaves BOS as the next place. However, they'd need to run something back and what time would that take place? The BEST you could do is reinstate old 2191, which would leave at 640p and arrive around 1010(ish.) However, that train didn't perform too well when it ran. Now, it would butt heads with 179 (which ran later) and you wouldn't connect to much. So, you'd need more than a one crew to swing all of this for balancing. Additionally, the trains lose down time they can't afford in the facilities. As it is, WAS is losing an hour on 2150 and Boston is losing the luxury of "1 tripping" 2163's equipment, which is critical if they have a problem set.

[Arlington]

This is largely off topic, but running an Acela into STM, turning and coming right back is a waste of manpower and resources. It also does nothing to balance the ridership unless you're going to send a train the next day to retrieve the riders you left the day before.

Its on topic because after 7pm some markets want a traditional Acela, but as of 2006 they weren't big enough to justify the runs, and you raised the possibility of the Acelas stopping "everywhere" if the patronage is marginal. I offered an alternative of "how about making Regional stops 'beyond' the NYP 'endpoint'?" This has the virtue of adding riders, but not losing the express character (except for the addition of a stop at BWI southbound and MET northbound) between WAS and NYP.
With southbound regionals serving NRO and Acelas already at STM, how balanced do the Acela trips need to be from a passenger standpoint? In once-a-day markets, Airlines sell plenty of round trips that are connections one way and nostops back. A late WAS-NYP Acela that then rushed "AM Regional" riders home to NRO/STM/NHV seems like it might attract people willing for a "half premium" or business class on their Regional. From Amtrak.com I see already that STM-WAS Acela is going for $258 vs $120ish on the regionals. This is one more option for those riders to get home that doesn't displace a NYP-BOS customer.

Therefore, the next logical move is it to operate to NHV or BOS. Leaving it in NHV is not a good idea since there are no facilities in place to diagnose, repair or maintain ACELA sets. These aren't everyday trains. They require special attention.

.
As a "utilzation" train (one that's "cheap" because it would otherwise be sitting idle), I'd explore turning it at NHV and having it return to NYP for a "revenue deadhead" (or just non-rev straight to the yards) so that I don't have to worry about balancing BOS too. At that rate, I'd also be interested in a late train from BOS that "overshot" NYP and turned somewhere between NWK and MET to return to NYP and the yards.

[gprimr1]

I'd like to see them address the gap in Boston service. There is nothing to DC after 5:30. I'd like to see them add something that can connect with the 10:05 regional from New York.

[gokeefe]

What an opportunity. I have to wonder when, if ever, Amtrak has been in a position to add service with the expectation that it would be certain to cover costs and also likely turn a handsome profit as well. Frankly, that makes me wonder how long its been since that was the case in any era, especially on the NEC.

[Arlington]

I'd like to see them address the gap in Boston service. There is nothing to DC after 5:30. I'd like to see them add something that can connect with the 10:05 regional from New York.

It would seem this would be best balanced by a new NYP-BOS Acela as an 8pm-9pm departure, but could theoretically be balanced if 2128 went all the way to BOS in the middle of the night (hoping that WAS-NRO/STM/NHV traffic would pay for most of it).

[ThirdRail7]

This is largely off topic, but running an Acela into STM, turning and coming right back is a waste of manpower and resources. It also does nothing to balance the ridership unless you're going to send a train the next day to retrieve the riders you left the day before.

Its on topic because after 7pm some markets want a traditional Acela, but as of 2006 they weren't big enough to justify the runs, and you raised the possibility of the Acelas stopping "everywhere" if the patronage is marginal. I offered an alternative of "how about making Regional stops 'beyond' the NYP 'endpoint'?" This has the virtue of adding riders, but not losing the express character (except for the addition of a stop at BWI southbound and MET northbound) between WAS and NYP.
With southbound regionals serving NRO and Acelas already at STM, how balanced do the Acela trips need to be from a passenger standpoint? In once-a-day markets, Airlines sell plenty of round trips that are connections one way and nostops back. A late WAS-NYP Acela that then rushed "AM Regional" riders home to NRO/STM/NHV seems like it might attract people willing for a "half premium" or business class on their Regional. From Amtrak.com I see already that STM-WAS Acela is going for $258 vs $120ish on the regionals. This is one more option for those riders to get home that doesn't displace a NYP-BOS customer.

Therefore, the next logical move is it to operate to NHV or BOS. Leaving it in NHV is not a good idea since there are no facilities in place to diagnose, repair or maintain ACELA sets. These aren't everyday trains. They require special attention.

.
As a "utilzation" train (one that's "cheap" because it would otherwise be sitting idle), I'd explore turning it at NHV and having it return to NYP for a "revenue deadhead" (or just non-rev straight to the yards) so that I don't have to worry about balancing BOS too. At that rate, I'd also be interested in a late train from BOS that "overshot" NYP and turned somewhere between NWK and MET to return to NYP and the yards.

It's off topic because this topic regards the addition of two trains between NYP-WAS. NHV, STM, BOS are not located between NYP-WAS and Amtrak didn't add nightly, premium service to those cities. Nor are they planning to.

It's off topic because as much as you like to compare, Amtrak is not an airline.

It's off topic because when we have to try and explain why an Acela can't just "turn" around in NHV (and I've already mentioned it lightly, but this is one area where you just don't get it,) I'll have to start going in to deep details about the ACELAs being waivered to death (which puts them on a different maintenence schedule and plan), calendar day inspection points, the S&I schedules of facilities , the fact they have don't undergo 92 days.) Despite the many time we've gone over it, you clearly have NO IDEA what it takes to service a train, and you REALLY don't have any idea what it takes to turn ACELAs.

Then, we have to brawl over Metro-North, crews, crew turns, equipment turns and the associated costs (which neither you or most people{myself included} on this board are qualified to answer.)

Additionally, you do not know what service proposals have been studied. To paraphrase MR Gilbert B Norman, the people that currently reside in 60 MASS AVE are not dumb. There are proposals and cost analysis plans for things that would blow your minds (the vast majority are labeled proprietary and confidential.) Some are entertained, others are dismissed.


Discussing all of these matters would drive away from the point of this thread: Amtrak reinstated 2128. As a result, they had to reinstate 2175.

Grimpr, there isn't a market in that area to justify the service. It is another area that does OK on weekends, but not weekdays. However, it was driven by the NYP area, not BOS-NHV territory. This is why they scaled back 179 to NYP (the market area) and operate 169 on weekends. 179 connects to 639 which is about all they need. You're only losing WIL-WAS. Remember, they start rolling up the sidewalks in places like HAR, STM, and WIL around 6pm. After 9pm, they are ghost towns and it is reflected in the ridership.

[ThirdRail7]

I'd like to see them address the gap in Boston service. There is nothing to DC after 5:30. I'd like to see them add something that can connect with the 10:05 regional from New York.

It would seem this would be best balanced by a new NYP-BOS Acela as an 8pm-9pm departure, but could theoretically be balanced if 2128 went all the way to BOS in the middle of the night (hoping that WAS-NRO/STM/NHV traffic would pay for most of it).

If we absorb his post, it seems he's looking for another Acela to WAS (since there is no way anything that leaves BOS after 5:30 can intercept 177 without pushing back 177 at NYP.) If you send 2128 to BOS to balance BOS, NY is still short a set (only 2124 and 2126 are in NYP), unless you run yet another train to NYP to balance or run an earlier ACELA out of BOS to assume the missing NYP start. The reality of ths situation is NYP-WAS is the huge market. As previously mentioned, Amtrak tries to keep their "commision hour" trains originating between their control points NYP-WAS. That means a 4:20 am start out of BOS to assume 2109's schedule at NYP. It also means another set in BOSs S&I which probably wouldn't be able to handle all of the work.

[Arlington]

Discussing all of these matters would drive away from the point of this thread: Amtrak reinstated 2128. As a result, they had to reinstate 2175.

In the future I will limit my participation to a single paragraph:

"The new service is perfect and cannot be improved upon, and no passenger or policy-maker shall desire any differently. Any known past or possible future variations--insofar as they do not acknowledge the new service's transcendent perfection--are off-topic and un-discussable"

[ThirdRail7]

Discussing all of these matters would drive away from the point of this thread: Amtrak reinstated 2128. As a result, they had to reinstate 2175.

In the future I will limit my participation to a single paragraph:

"The new service is perfect and cannot be improved upon, and no passenger or policy-maker shall desire any differently. Any known past or possible future variations--insofar as they do not acknowledge the new service's transcendent perfection--are off-topic and un-discussable"

Oooooor, why not start a topic regarding NYP-BOS operations? It is worthy of its own thread. Bostoncommutingstudent and I were having a discussion in a now locked thread plus we have the last eastbound thread.

This way we can preserve this thread for the pitfalls of the two existing trains, because I see pitfalls. You see pitfalls. I think the thought is admirable but the execution is poor. You can't skip BWI and/or MET at that time of night and expect a return.

In a few months, I predict we'll have much to discuss about these two trains.

[Arlington]

I'd like to see them address the gap in Boston service. There is nothing to DC after 5:30. I'd like to see them add something that can connect with the 10:05 regional from New York.

It would seem this would be best balanced by a new NYP-BOS Acela as an 8pm-9pm departure, but could theoretically be balanced if 2128 went all the way to BOS in the middle of the night (hoping that WAS-NRO/STM/NHV traffic would pay for most of it).

If we absorb his post, it seems he's looking for another Acela to WAS (since there is no way anything that leaves BOS after 5:30 can intercept 177 without pushing back 177 at NYP.)

I did read it to mean he'd like a later BOS departure that could terminate at NYP in time to intercept 177. I don't know if that's possible, but I do see that if it was a *new* train (and not a shifted one) it would need to be balanced (and would leave NYP sort if it went to WAS). Actually, I'd think that a later Acela, so long as it caught the last Keystone (#639 at 11:15) and got folks back to Metropark thru Philly would get him most of what he wanted.

[ThirdRail7]

I'd like to see them address the gap in Boston service. There is nothing to DC after 5:30. I'd like to see them add something that can connect with the 10:05 regional from New York.

It would seem this would be best balanced by a new NYP-BOS Acela as an 8pm-9pm departure, but could theoretically be balanced if 2128 went all the way to BOS in the middle of the night (hoping that WAS-NRO/STM/NHV traffic would pay for most of it).

If we absorb his post, it seems he's looking for another Acela to WAS (since there is no way anything that leaves BOS after 5:30 can intercept 177 without pushing back 177 at NYP.)

I did read it to mean he'd like a later BOS departure that could terminate at NYP in time to intercept 177. I don't know if that's possible, but I do see that if it was a *new* train (and not a shifted one) it would need to be balanced (and would leave NYP sort if it went to WAS). Actually, I'd think that a later Acela, so long as it caught the last Keystone (#639 at 11:15) and got folks back to Metropark thru Philly would get him most of what he wanted.

Now THAT is doable with a minor adjustment. Go back to 2191. It can turn off 2160 (440pm arrival in BOS.) It's the only thing you have left and the first train to "die." If you short turn it for a 6:20 departure (you can do it if all hands are on deck,) it'll arrive in NYP by 1000ish and you can yard it. You can retime 177 to leave NYP at 1015ish, 1020ish or retime it out of Boston completely.

NOW, you have equipment to send to Boston. 2128 is too late though. I would say 2122 for an 8pm departure. However, we need CSXconductor to verify the S&I availabilty of Boston. Additionally, Boston is losing time on their next day starts since 2164 is the next inbound.

When I get a shot (or if you feel like it Arlington) we need a thread for NYP-BOS. This can get in depth. We need a regional set that mirrors old 205/222 to NHV and everyone agrees that 66 and 67 stink! 141 grabs early morning NHV riders (along with 2151) but I definitely see the need for something entering Zone 1 after 730pm.

[Suburban Station]

Now THAT is doable with a minor adjustment. Go back to 2191. It can turn off 2160 (440pm arrival in BOS.) It's the only thing you have left and the first train to "die." If you short turn it for a 6:20 departure (you can do it if all hands are on deck,) it'll arrive in NYP by 1000ish and you can yard it. You can retime 177 to leave NYP at 1015ish, 1020ish or retime it out of Boston completely.

NOW, you have equipment to send to Boston. 2128 is too late though. I would say 2122 for an 8pm departure. However, we need CSXconductor to verify the S&I availabilty of Boston. Additionally, Boston is losing time on their next day starts since 2164 is the next inbound.

When I get a shot (or if you feel like it Arlington) we need a thread for NYP-BOS. This can get in depth. We need a regional set that mirrors old 205/222 to NHV and everyone agrees that 66 and 67 stink! 141 grabs early morning NHV riders (along with 2151) but I definitely see the need for something entering Zone 1 after 730pm.

From a Philly perspective, 2122 would be great. right now you can't get to boston after the 537 departure, this would give Philadelphia one last option to boston.

[Arlington]

When I get a shot (or if you feel like it Arlington) we need a thread for NYP-BOS. This can get in depth. We need a regional set that mirrors old 205/222 to NHV and everyone agrees that 66 and 67 stink! 141 grabs early morning NHV riders (along with 2151) but I definitely see the need for something entering Zone 1 after 730pm.

I did ask the Moderators to rename this thread (as they have) for Acela Nightly Premium Service to give us just enough flexibility in discussing Acelas after 6pm anywhere (but, no Keystones ).

If a new BOS Acela departure between 6pm and 7pm can terminate at NYP in time to connect with 177 (at 10-ish) or 639 (at 11-ish...or just offer "protection" for a tight 177 connection), I think its fair to discuss here, especially if it can be balanced by 2122 departing NYP at 8pm for BOS.

For Acelas at night, from a market-size and how-late-they-work-there standpoint it seems there's a fairly-rigid pecking order between the Acela Markets, the bigger you are, the later you're served (I'm rounding the hour of the latest Acela departure to show the pattern) If I read the schedules right, here are the current "Last Acela" in each market:
WAS-NYP = 9pm (was 8pm until 2128)
NYP-WAS = 8pm (was 7pm until 2175)
NYP-BOS = 7pm (could be 8pm if 2122 was extended)
BOS-NYP = 5pm (could be 6pm to meet 177)
PHL-BOS = 5pm (could be 6pm if 2122 was extended)
BOS-PHL = 5pm (was 4pm until 2715; a 6pm would meet 177)

[Tadman]

I think it's worth noting that there are a few different perspectives here.

Thirdrail7's perspective is that of operations. From an operations perspective, his analysis is 100% correct and well thought out. It shows how an Acela that runs late north of NYP to service Stamford or NHV is a really bad idea.

From a sales/marketing perspective, the idea of running north of NYP to STM/NHV might be a good idea. You'd have to speak with the marketing people to see what kind of demand there is, and if the revenue would reasonably offset the costs of keeping an Acela, with its extra maintenance needs, in NHV overnight.

What we have here is a classic case of big boy business dilemmas. Marketing and operations have to find a common ground. It's a dilemma you'll find every day at any business. "If we want to sell X product, is it worth incurring Y new costs triggered by people and machinery required to support the new product?"

When Chrysler decides to build a new model, they don't just look for space on the production line, they have to figure out if they can afford to support the new model with spare parts for ten years. When Google wants to offer a new service like Google Calendar, they don't just build it, they have to decide that they can integrate it into their other services enough that the transition to the new service will be seamless. When Amtrak wants to offer a new service like Downeaster or Lynchburg, they have to figure out how to service the train out in the sticks every night. The ridership to fill a train every night must be there before they'll lease a side track in Lynchburg to store the train overnight, and start contracting for diesel fuel, and build a fueling pad.