NEC All Station Stop Service

[gokeefe]

I read about this a week ago here and have yet to see further details.

The additional nonstop trains would be part of a tiered service plan for the Northeast Corridor. Limited-stop Acela trains would be a tier below, followed by Northeast Regional trains, and finally a new tier of service that makes all local stops on routes between Richmond, Virginia, and Maine.

I also assume that through service to/from Maine (perhaps via Worcester) was not implied.

If I understand it correctly Amtrak is proposing to run at least one train a day in each direction that would stop at all Amtrak stations on the NEC.

I almost titled the thread "All Stops Local" but that really isn't accurate given that I'm pretty sure this service won't include MARC, SEPTA, NJT, Metro North, Shore Line East and MBTA stops not already served by Amtrak.

[Roadgeek Adam]

That's an insanely slow train.

South Station
Back Bay
Route 128/Westwood
Providence
Kingston
Waverly
Mystic
New London
Old Saybrook
New Haven
Bridgeport
Stamford
New Rochelle
New York Penn
Newark Penn
Newark Liberty International Airport
Metropark
New Brunswick
Princeton Junction
Trenton
Cornwells Heights
North Philadelphia
Philadelphia 30th Street
Wilmington
Newark
Aberdeen
Baltimore
BWI Airport
New Carrollton
DC Union Station
Alexandria
Woodbridge
Quantico
Fredericksburg
Ashland
Richmond Staples Mill Road
Richmond Main Street
Williamsburg
Newport News

and that's not even including the rest of the branches.

Amtrak cannot possibly see this as profitable for anyone who doesn't need trains from like Old Saybrook to Cornwells Heights or something like that.

[andrewjw]

Are we sure the all-stop trains would run through service? I could see the all-stops trains running only between adjacent major stations (so a NY-Boston all stops would not also run NY-DC) and being timed to the relevant markets. There's certainly a market for peak-commuter-timed all-stops trains as a higher-end alternative to local commuter rail.

[gokeefe]

That's a really good point and would seem to make a lot of sense.

I am wondering why this idea has suddenly surfaced. One possible reason looks to me like this is the replacement service plan for the Northeast Regional trains once all of the new Acela trains come online.

In short all of the Northeast Regionals would be downgraded to "all stop" service with the Acela trainsets running the "express" (limited stop) or "non stop".

[mtuandrew]

Will there be lower fares to match?

Also makes me wonder if Amtrak would care to restart true Clocker service NYP-PHL. NJ Transit got those slots for its Trenton Expresses, but the SEPTA connection leaves a lot to be desired.

[gokeefe]

No idea ... But I remain mystified by this proposal. So far no one seems to know the answer to "Why?".

With regards to the Clocker service my analysis of Anderson's thinking is that if they make money he would support it.

There's no question they would be the fastest way to get from downtown New York to downtown Philadelphia.

[TomNelligan]

Between Metro North commuter congestion west of New Haven and drawbridge-related movement limits on the Shore Line east of there, isn't Boston-New York basically maxed out on capacity for additional Amtrak runs? If so, it would seem that adding these proposed long distance locals would require cuts to the current frequency of well-patronized Acelas and conventional trains. I don't see how that would improve market share.

[gokeefe]

Amtrak has publicly stated that they intend to run BOS-NYP Acela service on 60 minute headways one the new trainsets enter service. They have never clarified how that would be done give the schedule constraints you mention.

The best analysis I can derive from the intentions for Acela and an "all station stops" service is that the Northeast Regional trains will be cut back in favor of Acela with the remaining trains converted to "all stops".

[John_Perkowski]

Until we see something in writing from 60 Mass, let’s call this one unsubstantiated rumor, shall we?

[Station Aficionado]

Until we see something in writing from 60 Mass, let’s call this one unsubstantiated rumor, shall we?

But it’s so fun to speculate about the return of the Chesapeake.

[ThirdRail7]

Between Metro North commuter congestion west of New Haven and drawbridge-related movement limits on the Shore Line east of there, isn't Boston-New York basically maxed out on capacity for additional Amtrak runs? If so, it would seem that adding these proposed long distance locals would require cuts to the current frequency of well-patronized Acelas and conventional trains. I don't see how that would improve market share.

You're correct.

Amtrak has publicly stated that they intend to run BOS-NYP Acela service on 60 minute headways one the new trainsets enter service. They have never clarified how that would be done give the schedule constraints you mention.

The best analysis I can derive from the intentions for Acela and an "all station stops" service is that the Northeast Regional trains will be cut back in favor of Acela with the remaining trains converted to "all stops".

This isn't a rumor. This is a goal, which is something I've mentioned a few times, even as recently as a few days ago in the Another try at Acela non-stop service thread:

However, anyone with a timetable could easily see they cut an entire train (151) a few days a week, changed and extended the running time of the regional (111) that arrives WAS right before the new train. It has a snowball effect.

['ve mentioned this before. When all of those new sets are in service on the NEC, you may find the presence of an adjacent regional train...lacking.

A lot of people assume the new trainsets will add service by existing with the current schedule trains. It is extremely likely these sets will not only replace the Acela service, but it will also replace existing regional trains that operate exclusively between BOS-WAS. You will be left with little alternative....except the trains the originate at BOS or NYP and operate past WAS.

In other words, trains in the 150, 160 and 180 (and 170s that operate exclusively between BOS-WAS) series will be replaced with the new sets, making more stops than the super express. Trains like 93, 94, 95, 171, 174,176 will continue to operate and add more stops.

As for the why, NBK has requested additional service for years. PJC lost service years ago and with the raceway project pretty much finished, higher speed will likely appear. These stations are underserved and there is potential for additional riders. Amtrak wants to get away from CWH so I don't think you'll see that stop added to more trains. However, NRK, PJC and NBK have seen service increases. I don't ever remember an Amtrak train that originated at BOS, NYP or WAS servicing NBK on weekends. I'm hard-pressed to remember ANY Amtrak trains servicing NBK on weekends. Now, you have at two on the weekends. PJC has two west and three east on the weekends.

It has been slowly introduced already. The aforementioned 111 that operates prior to 2401 makes the following stops:

* NYP *
* NWK
* MET *
* NBK *
* PJC *
* TRE
* PHL
* WIL
* PVL
* ABE
* EDG
* BAL
* BWI
* NCR
* WAS

It skips EWR, CWH, PHN and NRK but makes PVL and EDG. It wouldn't take much to add NRK since you're typically against the platform. The running time for 111 is 3:38 minutes. That is not horrific.

Let's look at 171:

BOS .
* BBY
* RTE
* PVD
* KIN
* NLC
* NHV
* BRP .
* STM
* NYP
* NWK
* EWR
* MET
* NBK
* PJC
* TRE
* PHL
* WIL
* ABE *
* BAL .
* BWI
* NCR
* WAS
* ALX *
* BCV *
* MSS *
* CLP *
* CVS
* LYH
* RNK

It recently added NBK and PJC but it still skips WLY, MYS, OSB, NRO, PHN, and NRK on the NEC. You're only talking about 6 more stops that don't require any special routing (PHN, notwithstanding.)

Another example is 177:

* BOS
* BBY
* RTE
PVD
* KIN
WLY
* MYS
* NLC
* OSB
* NHV
BRP
STM
NRO
NYP
NWK
MET
NBK
PJC
TRE
PHL
WIL
ABE
BAL
BWI
NCR
WAS

NBK and PJC were recently added to this train. At this point, you're only missing EWR, PHN and NRK.

That isn't much of a gap to close.

If the current regime has its way, once the new sets are fully in service, this will be the reality.

[njtmnrrbuff]

Even though stopping at NBK and PJC may add some travel time, bear in mind that those are pretty important train stations. Princeton Jct is great for those who have business meetings to attend in any of the hotels along Rt. 1 in Princeton. There are people who live closer to PJC who would much rather pick up an Amtrak train there rather than having to use TRE.

NBK is basically a transportation and commerce hub of Central NJ. There are several large offices, a major hospital, university, and tons of shops and restaurants in NBK. Plus, plenty of people live in and closer to NBK and would rather not have to head to Metropark or Trenton to pick up Amtrak trains.

[STrRedWolf]

There's one other possibility: Extending existing commuter rail service to "match all the ends"

That means MARC to Wilmington, VRE further into Virginia, and Metro North/Shoreline East/MBTA being stretched to cover the north end.

That's going to need a lot of coordination, and in Virginia, a lot of money to work with CSX.

[rcthompson04]

There's one other possibility: Extending existing commuter rail service to "match all the ends"

That means MARC to Wilmington, VRE further into Virginia, and Metro North/Shoreline East/MBTA being stretched to cover the north end.

That's going to need a lot of coordination, and in Virginia, a lot of money to work with CSX.

How about this idea for expanded local service between NYP and WAS: MARC runs WAS to WIL, SEPTA runs WIL to TRN via the lower level of 30th or track 5 at Suburban, and NJT takes TRN to NYP.

[Suburban Station]

There's one other possibility: Extending existing commuter rail service to "match all the ends"

That means MARC to Wilmington, VRE further into Virginia, and Metro North/Shoreline East/MBTA being stretched to cover the north end.

That's going to need a lot of coordination, and in Virginia, a lot of money to work with CSX.

Amtrak can run it with ticket revenue, local commuter agencies have to find new money and you still have to change seats which makes it much less competitive with buses and driving.