Photography Matter - Was I at fault or the scape goat?

[mlrr]

Hi guys,

I thought I would share my latest railfanning experience with you guys and gain your opinion.

During our stop in DC, my train (train 95) was making an engine switch. Like I have done so many times before, I went down to the head end of the train to photograph this activity. I photographed the train backing into the platform area (with the flash, as always and it was during a sunny day) like I always do and then stopped to watch the engine actually couple up with the train.

Now I do not know the technical jargon but I will do my best to describe what happened next. The engine backed up and made contact with the head car but did not couple. The engine seemed to back into the car a little harder than usual but nothing to cause alarm or concern judging by the yard workers reaction. The engine started rolling forward immediately after hitting the head car. From the sound of the engine, it did not sound like the engineer was throttling up to make sure that the couplers had coupled correctly or to get a "good stretch". It seemed like it started to freely roll. To me it looked like something went wrong but not seriously wrong.

The locomotive did eventually couple up with the head car and as soon as it did, I went up front to photograph the front of the locomotive (178 I believe) and not long after the engineer popped his head out and started yelling at me about my flash. This was the first and only time that this had occurred and I have talked with the yard workers overseeing the engine switch while I was taking photos. They had no problems with it either.

So I ask you this. Was I in the wrong and get what I deserved or was I the scapegoat?

NOTE: With regard to the flash, it was a bright sunny day and clear. I hardly noticed any flash from my camera and it was used to capture the motion of all the activity (it was on auto flash setting anyway)

[DutchRailnut]

You are at fault for distracting the engineer, it does not matter what conditions exist to use a flash in any transportation setting will distract.
and in 99% of all stations and RR properties its against rules to use flash Photography.
Your lucky the guy only yelled, one call to RR police would have made you miss your train.

[EastCleveland]

Like I have done so many times before, I went down to the head end of the train to photograph this activity. I photographed the train backing into the platform area (with the flash, as always and it was during a sunny day) like I always do. . . . I went up front to photograph the front of the locomotive (178 I believe) and not long after the engineer popped his head out and started yelling at me about my flash. . . I hardly noticed any flash from my camera

Uhhh. . . did it ever occur to you that the reason you hardly noticed any flash from your camera was because you were standing behind it?

If you were indeed shooting photos of the front of the locomotive, and the engineer was sitting in the cab, your flash was going off directly into the guy's eyes. I'm willing to bet you took more than one shot, so it's no surprise that he yelled at you to knock it off.

I would have done the same, and would have used far more colorful language than he probably did. You were somewhere you didn't belong, doing something that was obviously distracting -- and which could have conceivably resulted in someone getting hurt.

Other than that, if it's true that "like I have done so many times before, I went down to the head end of the train to photograph this activity," why do you keep doing this again and again?

As Benjamin Franklin supposedly once noted, "The definition of insanity is to repeat the same action over and over and expect a different outcome."



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[mlrr]

I notice the flash in most cases in that once I have the object in the digital viewfinder, I no longer keep my eyes focused on it (it's the way I take photos) and that will be indoors or in a much darker setting.

In addition to that, I take photos in front of the loco once it has stopped and yard crews hook up the air hoses and MU cables, NOT when the locomotive is in motion.

I indeed only took one shot of the front end of the locomotive. When I post the only photograph I have of this instance, you will see the engineer stepping outside the locomotive door and not the cab window. The engine is obviously stationary. What other distractions are there when the locomotive is stationary? Again; I was only able to get one shot off when he said something and that's the one that I hope to post later on

Please read clearly as I stated that I have "done this so many occasions BEFORE this incident and it was the ONLY time this has ever happened".

So Ben Franklin is correct in that I did NOT expect the outcome described in my initial post because in times past, I have always been received well so the implication that I am insane is not strong in this case.

In the times that I have done this before I would also like to point out that just to "cover my bases" I ask the train crews and yard crews if it would be ok to photograph before I proceed and they have always granted me the privilege and at times have even volunteered information enthusiastically because I showed interest.

PS I've had people take photos of me in broad daylight and I have hardly noticed the flash from the camera either. I've noticed the flash to be less harsh that other cameras I've had in the past. I have a digital Kodak (I forget the model number off the top of my head) so I don't know if that makes a difference or not.

[DutchRailnut]

You are still trying to justify what you did, in your statement that you have done this many times before.
I have driven over posted speed limit many times before in my personal vehicle but does that make it legal or justfied to do so ???

[mlrr]

Not to sound like a smart Alec but have you asked the local officials for permission (I know that sounds stupid when discussed in the context of your example). It's not like I took it upon myself to disregard any signs are postings that were around (that I have seen) that stated otherwise with respect to flash photography and this is after asking train and yard crews.

In response to the edited post by EastCleveland, I was somewhere that I was granted access to by employees after seeking their approval and permission which I did not have to work hard for. I was not somewhere I didn't belong because I was given permission to enter the area as many other passengers were. If I went into the tunnel; that would have been another story, but I did not. D.C. has a 25+ minute dwell time and it is expected for passengers to walk along train side while the train is being serviced.

I would also like to clarify again, as the locomotive slowed down and began backing onto the consist (BOTH times) I was not taking pictures hence no flash, so whatever happened could not have been a result of my taking pictures because my camera was off during this stage of the engine change until after everything was stationary.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Kyle--

Color yourself lucky all that happened was you got yelled at.

It is one thing to take a photo of a scene in which a train is the subject (I know my thoughts on the propriety of doing this differs with many, if not most, around here) and something else of taking a photo of an employee actually perfoming their duties. The employee being photographed has no idea where this photo will end up. Will such simply be in a railfan's collection or on the Superintendent's desk - especially since you photographed something that went slightly wrong.

I would even think twice, or better known as have express permission, before taking the photo of an on-board service employee doing their job. Some will gladly give such, others will not.

Nuff said, but I believe you were definitely in the wrong and I hope this will be one of those lessons of life learned that was not exactly found in any college curriculum. Rest assured, I have had a few of those myself along the way.

Analagous

[mlrr]

May I ask who here does photograph trains and what do you do to capture the motion of a passing train without getting a blur let alone the blur from an unsteady hand? As noted in the initial post, the camera was on auto, so if I didn’t need the flash, it didn’t go off. I do not leave the flash on intentionally, I leave it in the auto setting for the “best results”.

To spell it out again, this is the first and only time this has happened, meaning that no matter how right or wrong I felt he/I was in the situation, I took it into consideration afterwards despite all the other times before. No need to talk down to anyone who is asking the question, that doesn’t get anyone anywhere. My curiosity stemmed from the fact that there was a minor mishap (Which sounds much worse than it really is in my explanation than what it really was) and whether or not my photography (in that situation) was directly related or a place to point the finger. Again, THERE WAS NO PHOTOGRAPHY WHEN THE ENGINE WAS COUPLING UP WITH THE TRAIN, I even retract where I said that the engine backed in harder than normal as my most recent encounter where the train coupled correctly, it backed in relatively hard and I did not photograph at all when I went up front as my batteries were low and so I would go as far as to say that it was a simple matter of the locomotive not coupling on the first go-around.

Nobody is calling for the engineer’s head so there is no need to come at mine. As I said before, out of all of the photography that I have done in the past (even when consulting the engineer himself) I’ve never had a problem nor has there ever been a problem. Even though this was the one and only incident despite my opinion on the subject, I exercised caution on future occasions and have already taken the steps that many have made out to seem like something I could not figure out for myself. This is an isolated incident folks and I took something from that experience.

Nobody is disputing that the flash is a distraction but for the situation described I was wondering if that was the case. Perhaps nobody took the time out to think that perhaps this forum member is a bit remorseful about what had happened and wanted to know if he put people in danger.

No good parent would tell their child that he/she and their spouse are splitting up because of them.

It seems to me that I can not do a good job of explaining everything that happened and is a situation that you just had to be there for.

[pgengler]

I think that using the flash, intentionally or not, is likely to get attention from a crew member. Personally, I make a point of leaving my camera in a mode where it won't automatically use the flash, but will still automatically pick shutter and aperature values. If you want to avoid the blur from hand-holding the camera, consider using a tripod or monopod, or finding a flat surface (like a trash can or pay phone) to hold the camera steady.

The flash from a camera is distracting; this is why nearly all events such as concerts, plays, etc. prohibit flash photography. It's no different for a train's engineer.

Consider this: photography is your hobby, but operating the train is the engineer's job. Flashing a bright light in his eyes (and like others have mentioned, while you didn't really notice the flash, it's directed away from you and toward him) is a distraction to him doing his job.

[mlrr]

Now that's more like it, I appreciate the suggestions and will take those into consideration.

What I've been trying to imply but may not have made clear is that I know my camera compensates. The only time that the flash was "obvious" was while I photographed the front of the engine and to tell you the truth, I only got one shot and didn't notice the engineer was in the picture until after I went back and looked at it in my camera's preview function. All other times, I was in the open and there was more than enough light that the camera's auto-setting did not use the flash. I am 98% positive of that.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

[Mr. Toy]

To prevent motion blur, you need a fast shutter speed. For a slow moving train 1/125 should do it. For a fast moving train 1/500 or faster is better. If your camera has an "action mode" it will automatically choose the fastest shutter speed appropriate for the lighting. Flash won't help freeze motion in daylight, since the sun is the dominant light source. The best flash can do is fill in the shadows a bit.

Asd a general rule, when shooting without a tripod, never use a shutter speed slower than the focal length of the lens. (For example with a 60mm lens never use a shutter speed slower than 1/60.) Otherwise camera shake will likely cause motion blur.

[JLJ061]

I never use a flash anytime it can be considered impractical or even illegal.

I also like to take pictures at rock concerts, and I always make sure my flash is turned off because: 1) So I don't draw attention to myself; 2) I'm usually so far back a flash wouldn't do any good anyway; 3) I don't feel like pissing off the people around me by distracting them with my flash.

[Fred G]

The rule of thumb for photography in stations is no flash, no tripod and no entry into non-public areas. If you stick to this rule even if it's not stated in a railroad's rules of conduct, you'll encounter a lot less problems and won't reflect badly on your fellow railfans.

[Ken W2KB]

May I ask who here does photograph trains and what do you do to capture the motion of a passing train without getting a blur let alone the blur from an unsteady hand? As noted in the initial post, the camera was on auto, so if I didn’t need the flash, it didn’t go off. I do not leave the flash on intentionally, I leave it in the auto setting for the “best results”.

Is this a flash built in to the camera? If so, the flash is only good for objects within 10 feet or so. Those flashes are intended for close up shots, primarily of people, when a regular flash is unavailable. It really won't help the lighting at all for railroad photography as the built-ins are very low light output.

Note that this is true for even relatively expensive cameras, such as my Pentax istD (a digital SLR that with standard lens costs well over $1,000) with its built in flash. I use a much more powerful external flash when needed. For rail photos as you describe I'll shoot with available light (no flash) and steady myself against something or use a monopod (tripods are trip hazards in railway stations.)

[Fred G]

Monopods are cool, but be aware that the MBTA in Boston considers them the same as a tripod, and forbids their use. I don't know about the other railroads but that was expressly pointed out to me when I received a permit. Something to keep in mind.