Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

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sd80mac
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Location: Rochester, ny

Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by sd80mac »

rr503 wrote:Which line? CNYK line = southern tier.
no. Sparta line

rr503
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by rr503 »

NYSW still uses the line through Sparta. Trains leave the tier at Campbell Hall and run down via the ex-LHR and then ex-NYSW from there.

sd80mac
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by sd80mac »

Thanks for clear up. Now i get it.

markyk
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by markyk »

will this add a train or 2?

csx is developing one in Syracuse

is this a NS counter?

https://buffalonews.com/2019/04/15/ship ... authority/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.morethanshipping.com/port-o ... falo-port/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SecaucusJunction
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Location: NS Watchdog

Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by SecaucusJunction »

Hopefully this goes better than the first one...…
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

rr503
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by rr503 »

Assuming rail volumes get up to projections, 82 containers/day is nothing. That's 41 wells on the back of an existing CSX IM train. NS would need a massive volume commitment between somewhere that can't be got to easily via the Lehigh Line and NYC and would moreover need to actually want to take that commitment and not pawn it off to CSX because muh up front costs. I just don't see that anywhere in the tier's service area.

SecaucusJunction
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by SecaucusJunction »

NS could use the eastern Tier for zero capital costs. They pay no taxes on the line, even though they still own it. The line is generally good for 40mph and the NYSW runs trains from Sparrowbush to Binghamton in just over 3.5 hours. Slots can be set up with NJT on schedules east of Port Jervis (detours have gotten through with little problem). There is really no reason that NS could not run a train up the Delaware if they want to. They have "parallel" routes in many other parts of the country that they split their traffic. For most of the time since they split Conrail, NS did whatever they could to keep traffic west of NJ and then use the almighty Route 78 to get traffic in the area. What trains remained to Croxton/Erail were pathetically short and most trains were either terminated or significantly shortened in Harrisburg or Bethlehem. Virtually none of the "Crescent Corridor" North South traffic came east of Harrisburg and only 2% of NJ to Atlanta cargo is handled by rail (I actually thought that is probably generous). More recently cuts have been made to Bethlehem and Morrisville, neither of which handle TOFC anymore. Port traffic in NJ has been the only bright spot lately with 3x per week 242/243 added east of Harrisburg and 23M bursting at the seams. But with these railroads, if that traffic picks up, they'll shun other traffic to make room for it as long as they can keep their operating ratio at the lowest level possible and not raise their Capex number.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

rr503
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by rr503 »

There exists more than capital cost here. You'd presumably need to re-qualify crews, probably add crews to bases along the tier, and possibly would need a new train start, if none could be peeled off the Lehigh as you suggest. You'd also have to spend more on fuel (Tier profile isn't that forgiving, and if this train is a peel-off from the Lehigh, is also longer), etc etc. Of course there may be revenue potential to be had here, but the name of the game these days seems to be cutting cost -- so I'd imagine it's just these things that NS would see, especially given that CSX is already better equipped to carry this traffic.

NS's relationship with NJ intermodal traffic is one of the more interesting stories of the past 20 years. To be fair to them, there's a lot to be said for aggregating in Harrisburg -- you can pull from a massive swath of the northeast with a minimum of terminals, drivers don't have to deal with Newark/Jersey City area congestion -- but I've gotta wonder what the actual economics look like. What are the marginal costs of operating trains to NJ vs trucking there vs potential revenues?

pumpers
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by pumpers »

markyk wrote:will this add a train or 2?
csx is developing one in Syracuse
is this a NS counter?
https://buffalonews.com/2019/04/15/ship ... authority/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...
This article says "Buffalo is part of the third-largest and fastest-growing metropolitan region in North America — the horseshoe zone stretching from Toronto to Rochester."
Wow, I find that hard to believe - especially with so much going on in the south and west of the US.

rr503
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by rr503 »

A question I’ve been musing in quarantine is what traffic BUOI/OIBU catered to when they operated in Conrails later years. Obviously OI played a different role in CRs network than it does in NS/CSX’s today, but I’d be curious to know what carload O/D flows were carried/where they go now (if they exist).

bostontrainguy
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by bostontrainguy »

Maybe they should skip New York all together and unload the ships in Florida and send the trains north from there?

rr503
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Location: North by Northwest

Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by rr503 »

bostontrainguy wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:54 am
Maybe they should skip New York all together and unload the ships in Florida and send the trains north from there?
Issues are money and market. Ship transport is much less $$$ than rail, so for lower value goods, it makes sense to keep things on until closest point to destination. Vastly more important is the fact that NYC-area has a GIGANTIC regional market, so economies of scale dictate that it can be easy to call on the port there (esp. since this distinction makes it the first US port of call for a lot of ships), unload cargo bound for NYC, and while you're doing that, send some stuff inland. And generally, remember that there's lots of US-Europe trade through east coast ports, as well as US-Asia trade via Suez.

cjvrr
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by cjvrr »

I know of a few from the times chasing OIBU and BUOI in the 1980s;

They would usually have pickups and drop offs at;

Suffern, drop and pickup cars.
Campbell Hall (usually dropping cars for Warwick, the M&NJ and the Maybrook and Montgomery Branches to be served by a local)
Red Onion (just east of Middletown station) I think they set out reefers there.
Port Jervis rarely and usually just a car with telephone poles.
Lackawaxen, PA to serve the Stourbridge
Cochecton, NY to serve the grain / feed mill which is still serviced today.
Narrowsburg, another feed mill
Deposit, NY is a plywood / MDF manufacturer there that would get wood pulp or ship out finished product but hasn't used rail in years.
Binghamton was always a drop or pickup and crew change.

We didn't chase beyond Binghamton too often so I don't know anything west of there.
rr503 wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:34 am
A question I’ve been musing in quarantine is what traffic BUOI/OIBU catered to when they operated in Conrails later years. Obviously OI played a different role in CRs network than it does in NS/CSX’s today, but I’d be curious to know what carload O/D flows were carried/where they go now (if they exist).
CV the Civil E

SecaucusJunction
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Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by SecaucusJunction »

They would work BT on the Bergen Line to interchange with the NYSW. In the later years, I believe the Red Onion and PJ telephone poles would be dropped at Campbell Hall and moved from a local there. PJ was still used as a crew change point.

As time went on, these trains were not very long as Oak Island was lessened in importance.
I think it may be possible that NJ Transit might not be the perfect, infallible organization that most people assume it is.

rr503
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Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 4:13 pm
Location: North by Northwest

Re: Southern Tier - East of Binghamton

Post by rr503 »

Thank you both for the info. Good context for the evergreen "adding traffic to the eastern tier" discussion.

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