• Viewliner II Delivery/Production

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

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  by STrRedWolf
 
RRspatch wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 11:17 pm
STrRedWolf wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:05 pm Siemens will probably build the next gen Amfleets/Viewliners. The Superliner? Well, Bombardier/Alstom has experience with double deckers...
Doesn't Alstom now hold the patents on the Superliners? I thought the chain went something like this - Pullman Standard -> Bombardier -> Alstom or does Amtrak hold the patents?

It's a shame Alstom didn't get the contract to build the California/Midwestern bi-level order based on the Surfliners.
Pullman did the Superliner I. The design went from Pullman to Pullman Tech to Bombardier. Bombardier did the Superliner II. With the buyout, it's all Alstom now, who also did the Surfliner independent of Bombardier.

Also take the Bombardier MultiLevel coach for NY Transit and MARC... it's ether make Siemens build a double-decker, find another party to do it that isn't on a blacklist, or go Alstom.
  by west point
 
Patents are not a problem. What is the length of a patent now? As I remember it was around 18 years. Now copyright is a different matter.
  by STrRedWolf
 
west point wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:37 pm Patents are not a problem. What is the length of a patent now? As I remember it was around 18 years. Now copyright is a different matter.
Per https://www.stopfakes.gov/article?id=Ho ... ction-Last ...
Depends on what type it is.

Utility patents (describing how to do something) are 20 years as long as fees are paid. Design patents (describing the look of an object) are 15 years.

Copyrights, which are for implementations (written works, pictures, stuff that's made) are "life of author+70 years" for regular work and ether 95 years from first publication or 120 years from creation, whichever is shortest, for "work for hire" copyrights.

Trademarks, which cover designs/iconography that identifies a company or product (like Amtrak's logos), are as long as the company that owns them is willing to fight any infringement.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 10:05 am Also take the Bombardier MultiLevel coach for NY Transit and MARC... it's ether make Siemens build
double-decker, find another party to do it that isn't on a blacklist, or go Alstom.
CRRC is building it for SEPTA.
  by bostontrainguy
 
I wonder how much importance anyone can put on patent ownership. Certainly no one has a patent on the double-decker concept. The patents are maybe 40 years old? Do you think there may be a better way to do things today? You can change a minor item and the patent may not apply anymore.

Curious at what exactly is patented and how it is proprietary to the current owner even if the patent is still active..
  by Greg Moore
 
Pretty much all the patents are expired. They're almost certainly are NOT the problem.

The issue is the copyrights. All the blueprints are copyrighted. So if you want to build a new Superliner type car, you either need a cleansheet design, OR you need to get permission of the current copyright owners to use (and modify) their prints.

As I recall, this is one reason Amtrak designed the Viewliners in house, they own all the intellectual property associated with them and in theory can go to any manufacturer with them.
  by bostontrainguy
 
Greg Moore wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 9:39 am As I recall, this is one reason Amtrak designed the Viewliners in house, they own all the intellectual property associated with them and in theory can go to any manufacturer with them.

That's good. I think Amtrak did a great job designing the Viewliners. I wonder if they ever designed a coach version or a lounge version? Maybe an enthusiastic designer even toyed with the idea of a bi-level or dome version!

So if Amtrak actually did legally copyright these designs maybe they are all available for public viewing?
Last edited by bostontrainguy on Mon May 03, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by west point
 
It has not ever been made clear if the Amtrak contract with CAF included all patents and plans for the V-2s ?. As well CAF sub contracts with vendors ?
  by electricron
 
The very first post of this thread was posted on Sat Jul 24, 2010 at 1:21 pm May 4, 2021 is almost 11 years later, or approximately 132 months. CAF built or is building 130 Viewliner II cars, averaging around one car per month. Half of them were baggage cars with little to no passenger facilities.

One car per month. Please do not suggest that is mass production.
  by gokeefe
 
Agreed. It basically turned into custom fabrication. The order is just too small to gain efficiencies of scale.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

  by bostontrainguy
 
gokeefe wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:24 pm Agreed. It basically turned into custom fabrication. The order is just too small to gain efficiencies of scale.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Yeah, Amtrak should award them the 70 car option as a way to thank them for hanging in there. Should be a breeze now to turn them out.

Not really sure if I am speaking tongue-in-check or not :smile:
  by Greg Moore
 
Like I've said, I have very mixed feelings on this idea. I think Amtrak could definitely make a business case for 70 more cars. IF they were to do that, they have a choice of "the devil they know" than "the devil they don't know."
Sleepers are simply more complex than coach due to plumbing and other issues. So it's not just a matter of minor changes where a new manufacturer can simply step up.

Honestly, I'm torn.
But that all comes down to if Amtrak Joe wants it. It won't happen without some very high level support.
  by Matt Johnson
 
Those sleepers are very nice cars and I wouldn't mind seeing more of 'em, especially if ADA requirements push Amtrak toward phasing out Superliners long term in favor of single level. I'm resigned to the fact that there probably won't be another standard dining car produced but I wouldn't mind seeing a cafe/lounge variant with some nice seating for sightseeing.
  by John_Perkowski
 
WRT blueprints, most are at Illinois Railroad Museum, with a donors caveat they may not be used to build rail cars for sale to railroads and transport agencies.
  by gokeefe
 
Unfortunately they would be useless at this point because none of those cars were ADA accessible ... Unless the Superliner drawings are there ... Which I doubt ... (?) ...

On the other hand with regards to the 70 car option ... I think there is at least an outside chance Amtrak has taken another look at this ... A lot of new route miles are being proposed including some mileage with single level requirements over medium distances.

I think it's at least in the realm of possibility right now. If Scranton and Allentown can be on a list for service along with Long Island and a new tunnel I think anything is possible ...

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