Unified Ticketing for NYC area agencies

Going home from JFK this morning, I just thought again about how our agencies can't even agree on a single payment system.

MTA has its app, NJT has its own. OMNY works on AirTrain and NYC subways, but not LIRR/MNR. PATH and NJT will have their own fare cards soon, each with its own balance, top-up mechanisms, apps, and customer service centers.

A 30-mile trip from an airport in the region to your home could involve the use of 4 different payment methods. In 2023.

You want these people to figure out how to share train equipment, dispatch, and crews? What kind of sick joke is that?

lensovet wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:52 pm Going home from JFK this morning, I just thought again about how our agencies can't even agree on a single payment system.

MTA has its app, NJT has its own. OMNY works on AirTrain and NYC subways, but not LIRR/MNR. PATH and NJT will have their own fare cards soon, each with its own balance, top-up mechanisms, apps, and customer service centers.

A 30-mile trip from an airport in the region to your home could involve the use of 4 different payment methods. In 2023.

You want these people to figure out how to share train equipment, dispatch, and crews? What kind of sick joke is that?

I can see PATH and NJT getting on board OMNY. I can't see all commuter rail getting on board, though... except to pay for the tickets using OMNY... but then you can just use a credit card at the machines and turnstyles.

That said... caternary power, underrunning third rail, overruning third rail. Amtrak, Metro-North, and LIRR have different operations. The thing here is... how do you resolve how these trains are powered?

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 12:00 pm I can see PATH and NJT getting on board OMNY. I can't see all commuter rail getting on board, though... except to pay for the tickets using OMNY... but then you can just use a credit card at the machines and turnstyles.

I can't, because both are in the process of advancing contracts for the installation of their own, non-interoperable, payment systems.

Having a dedicated card (linked to a commuter card or other credit card) does have the benefit of separating your transactions and having a more useful transaction history (with points of entry and exit) rather than just a generic item on your credit card bill. That's all commuter trains would need to do, with a tag on-tag off model, yet even this is not being rolled out at this point in time. Other systems around the world have figured it out.

That said, I suspect that the future is in the removal of dedicated cards completely. Once everyone finally has contactless readers capable of reading mobile wallets directly, there's not much of a need for a dedicated card anymore. I visited Vancouver and Sydney in the past week and it was so much simpler to just use my credit card for everything without having to figure out what kind of card I needed to buy and how to top it up. But my WageWorks commuter card still doesn't support mobile wallets, so I keep using my EasyPay MetroCard in the meantime.

Boston (CharlieCard), Philadelphia (Key) and Toronto (Presto) have a single fare card for transit and rail. It would make sense for all MTA to adopt. The latter even has different agencies for city transit and commuter services.

lensovet wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 6:32 pm I can't, because both are in the process of advancing contracts for the installation of their own, non-interoperable, payment systems.

Having a dedicated card (linked to a commuter card or other credit card) does have the benefit of separating your transactions and having a more useful transaction history (with points of entry and exit) rather than just a generic item on your credit card bill. That's all commuter trains would need to do, with a tag on-tag off model, yet even this is not being rolled out at this point in time. Other systems around the world have figured it out.

That said, I suspect that the future is in the removal of dedicated cards completely. Once everyone finally has contactless readers capable of reading mobile wallets directly, there's not much of a need for a dedicated card anymore. I visited Vancouver and Sydney in the past week and it was so much simpler to just use my credit card for everything without having to figure out what kind of card I needed to buy and how to top it up. But my WageWorks commuter card still doesn't support mobile wallets, so I keep using my EasyPay MetroCard in the meantime.

I think we're on the same page. Transit modes that are completely gated should have the same way to pay. That's NYC Subway and PATH. It can extend to NJT's light rail as a tap-on-board with fare validation (See MTA Maryland Light Rail).

That said, commuter rail *isn't* gated. Amtrak *isn't* gated. I highly doubt MBTA's commuter rail system is fully gated and SEPTA I know isn't fully gated. The only system I know which is fully gated is Japan's rail systems, and they still use paper. Until you get it fully gated stem-to-stern, you can't begin to unify the payments. You don't have the base to do it.

Charlie Card 2.0 will be used by all forms of transportation under the MBTA, be it bus, trolley, heavy rail, commuter rail, and boat. Dare I say it will even work on other RTA's in Massachusetts. SEPTA Key I believe does that already. All you need is the conductor to have a validator oh MTA Conductors have those.

Why do you need a gated system to use an RFID card for fare payment? Every single system in the country works on a tag on-tag off system, no reason to require fare gates to do that.

To add an answer, it is politics and accounting. Inter-agency and Inter-State issues are very sensitive and hard to resolve.

The politics is anyone's guess. Each agency (and state) has their own accounting rules and requirements and trying to reconcile can give anyone a headache. Each State has to do their own 'begging" to the Feds for funding.

As far as accounting goes, I once tried to do a layout of what I thought might be the accounting involved with PATH accepting the Pay-per-ride MetroCard. I gave up after a while as there were just to many variables.

Some examples - PATH has to pay fees to the MTA for the design/use of the MetroCard Machines in PATH stations as well as the cost of the MetroCards in the machines (this includes those 2 fare PATH only MetroCards).

If someone uses a MetroCard purchased in the NYC Subway in a PATH turnstile, then the MTA owes PATH that fare. If someone uses a MetroCard purchased from a PATH vending machine in a NYC Subway turnstile then PATH owes the MTA that fare.

[BTW - when a MetroCard expires you can trade it in (within 1 year) at a MetroCard Vending Machine (MVM) in any subway station - doesn't matter if there is a value on it or not. BUT an expired MetroCard purchased from a MVM will not be accepted for trade in a PATH Vending Machine (I tried this just as an experiment) because then PATH would have to collect the $1 from the MTA]. I imagine the same would apply to a MetroCard purchased from a PATH machine.

I don't even want to attempt to figure out what type of accounting would have to be done with the Unlimited MetroCards if PATH were to accept them.

I can understand a little why PATH won't get involved with OMNY.

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For the sake of transparency - I have a Degree in Accounting. I worked (I am retired now) for a major financial institution for over 3 decades in various functions within their Corporate Finance/Real Estate area. I even posed the question to some of my co-workers. They got similar headaches just thinking about it.

the irony is that we didn't even have OMNY cards until a year ago. there's no reason path would even need to sell any omny cards.

lensovet wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:21 pm the irony is that we didn't even have OMNY cards until a year ago. there's no reason path would even need to sell any omny cards.

Actually the OMNY card was introduced in mid-fall of 2021. It was only available in some 7-Eleven and CFSC stores (even though the MTA kept saying that it was also available in CVS stores). I know this to be true as I bought an OMNY card in a 7-Eleven on E23rd St off Park Av South on October 21, 2021 (I remember the date because I went online to register the card later that day).

I agree that PATH has no reason to sell OMNY cards as they already have the SmartLink card (which works quite well from my own experience). But what PATH is saying is that they are not interested in tying into the OMNY program and would rather introduce their own card

I know what they are saying, and it's insane that we have 4 agencies within a 5-mile radius that each have their own payment systems. I would be amazed if there's a single other metro in the world that has such a problem.

You tried to provide a "reason" for why this is totally understandable with the example of the difficulties of accounting for MetroCard sales. My point is that if that was really the hold-up for OMNY, there's no reason for them to get into the card selling business. What's more ridiculous is that the PA is already accepting OMNY on the AirTrain, so they have literally already done the work to integrate with it. They just refuse to do it on PATH specifically. It's a political issue, not a technical or financial one. That's the problem.

True--it's not only interjurisdictional but interstate; and involving NY and NJ at that. Once two governors get involved all sorts of side issues get in the way.

lensovet wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 2:38 pm I know what they are saying, and it's insane that we have 4 agencies within a 5-mile radius that each have their own payment systems. I would be amazed if there's a single other metro in the world that has such a problem.

You tried to provide a "reason" for why this is totally understandable with the example of the difficulties of accounting for MetroCard sales. My point is that if that was really the hold-up for OMNY, there's no reason for them to get into the card selling business. What's more ridiculous is that the PA is already accepting OMNY on the AirTrain, so they have literally already done the work to integrate with it. They just refuse to do it on PATH specifically. It's a political issue, not a technical or financial one. That's the problem.

I highlighted one sentence in your answer for a reason. If you read thru the OMNY thread you will see a response from someone who is "in the know" about such things and that individual (without mentioning screen names) was told at a point during training for a 'customer service' position with NYCT that the MTA had never intended to issue a proprietary card for OMNY but was going to leave it at contactless credit/debit cards and smart devices. That is why they did the whole program "ass-backwards" - doing the contactless credit/debit cards and smart devices testing and roll-out first. At some point someone in authority pointed out that not everyone has those payment media items (or wants to use them directly) and the MTA had to provide something for those in the 'Reduced-Fare" category. Thus - the OMNY card was created. You'll notice that the card face design is so unimaginative and plain as compared to cards issued by other transit agencies that is shows they had real intention of going in that direction. And doing a pilot test of machines now - in only 6 stations? In the Bowling Green station the single machine is placed at the lowest level of the station and in a way that most people exiting that way don't even see it (the signs on the wall are meaningless when a person's mind is 'headed for the exit').

If the MTA had done the program the right way - OMNY card first, then credit/debit cards and smart devices, by now the MetroCard would have been a memory. That is the way the other transit agencies did/are doing it (WMATA doesn't count since they started with their card to begin with).

One other point (this could go on and on and on) - the MTA had even announced recently that the MetroCard is not going away anytime soon, showing how the poor handling of the program is biting them in the butt. Someone in the program is holding out for a miracle because most new MetroCards being sold by MVMs these days have an expiration date of 01/31/25 on them (I have seen a few with 12/31/24).

I don't see anything wrong with doing credit cards first. It's what most people are using. America's obsession with cash is not really replicated anywhere else in the developed world. Most other countries universally accept contactless payments and no one bats an eye when they are used. Meanwhile in 2023, I still have people giving me blank stares when I ask them if I can use Apple Pay for my purchases in this country. This is technology that has been around for over a decade – I was using it to pay for groceries in the late 2000s.

The real issue, again, is the lack of integration with other agencies. That is what's keeping MC alive. Not the lack of reduced-fare OMNY cards. And that, in turn, is due to political turf battles, not the lack of a proprietary card. Which is why I originally raised this issue in a different thread, before my post was split off into this separate thread for some reason.

Even SEPTA and DRPA couldn't work together when PATCO introduced the FREEDOM card in 2007. The
same year PATH launched SmartLink, and MTA did not get on board.

In a sense PATH was a pioneer with stored value multi-trip cards as the QuickCard debuted in 1989, long before MetroCards. The QuickCard continued under name of "SmartLink Gray", a paper pre-valued card with multiple
rides though January 2016.

Allan wrote: ↑Thu Nov 16, 2023 1:49 am Someone in the program is holding out for a miracle because most new MetroCards being sold by MVMs these days have an expiration date of 01/31/25.

LIRR and MNCR no longer sell round trip MetroCards at TVMs, only through station agents at ticket offices either with or without rail fare. $29 10-ride MetroCards (with $1 fee) will still be available at TVMs.