UK Dover and Kent Rail Upgrade

Does anyone have any concrete news on the track, station and rolling stock upgrade? Dover Priory Station is meant to be being upgraded and the rolling stock upgraded to make the whole system actually modern!

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I had heard it was planned for 2009. What I haven't quite got to grips with is a mao that will show if it will be possible to go direct to Paris from Dover. Allegedly the rolling stock is to be similar to chunnel stock, and will definitely go to St Pancras.

Captain Sam wrote:Sorry, I should have mentioned that I had heard it was planned for 2009. What I haven't quite got to grips with is a mao that will show if it will be possible to go direct to Paris from Dover. Allegedly the rolling stock is to be similar to chunnel stock, and will definitely go to St Pancras.

When the CTRL - now named High Speed 1 - is finally open in October of this year it will be possible in theory to run high speed domestic trains into St Pancras from Kent. I don't think the trains, ordered from Hitachi, are ready yet. They will be used for Olympic traffic between St Pancras and Stratford. The Southeastern Rail franchise includes a plan to run these new trains and a timetable.

However, they will not run from Dover to Paris. The only trains to Paris will run as now through Ashford.

The new trains have to be able to run on the third rail track as well as the overhead.

One effect of running them will be to free space on the traditional routes for freight (if there happened to be any).

Fares will be higher. Will people actually use them? That's a big question.

The traditional times to Dover and other Kent towns are very much longer than for example trains to Reading on the western line or Peterborough on the North eastern line.

Some stations are also due for upgrade. Dover station is rather run down at present. It is a link to the ferries and one can hope for bus connection from there, but sometimes one has to use a taxi.

I think the planned 1 hour 10 minutes commute into London will make people use them. Dover property prices are so low currently that you can buy a mansion there and have change for the season ticket. But that does mean tehy are missing a trick by making you (presumably) drive to Ashford if you want to get to Paris (etc).

I think property prices are likely to leap, though, when the Priory station is upgraded. Folkestone saw a similar effect.

Does this mean they will keep the thrid rail in the Dover area, or will they be upgrading to overhead power?

Captain Sam wrote:I think the planned 1 hour 10 minutes commute into London will make people use them. Dover property prices are so low currently that you can buy a mansion there and have change for the season ticket. But that does mean tehy are missing a trick by making you (presumably) drive to Ashford if you want to get to Paris (etc).

I think property prices are likely to leap, though, when the Priory station is upgraded. Folkestone saw a similar effect.

Does this mean they will keep the thrid rail in the Dover area, or will they be upgrading to overhead power?

There are no plans to introduce overhead on to any of the old lines. Even the existing line between Dover and Folkestone is a problem. The Shakespeare Cliff tunnels are magnificent but don't conform to modern safety practice. There was even a possibility that this line would close. However, I gather that a way has been found to use it.

One can take the train to Ashford International, which has immigration controls. There was a report that Eurostar was going to reduce the number of trains stopping at Ashford, or even stop them altogether. That seems a bad move to me. Their excuse is that there will be more passengers at Stratford and Ebbsfleet. I haven't seen any recent reports on what is going on. I can imagine there are people lobbying to keep the Ashford stop, as many French businesses have moved to the area to get away from French taxes, and chose the area because of its Eurostar connections. Also the local authority has been basing much of its business development on that fact.

Eurostar could not travel via Dover without complete rebuilding of everything.

There were suggestions by Eurotunnel (attempting to promote traffic) that British commuters might live in Calais. In that case an outer suburban service and type of train might start from Calais. It would be interesting to start the Hitachi trains from Calais - but Home Office rules would prevent it stopping at any station other than those equipped with immigration checks.

I am told that British people have gone to live in Calais though not in the numbers they were planning. Probably not enough for an extended commuter service. As always the Home Office is the problem, and Security.

The Highspeed commuter trains will end at St Pancras, far away from the area where present commuters mostly go: London Bridge, Victoria andCharing Cross. Of course they can get off at Stratford and take the Jubilee line to the City and Canary Wharf.

There are a lot of uncertainties.

Dover town certainly needs sprucing up. I don't like the place, though I am influenced by the horrible B&Bs one encounters when getting off a late ferry and the rapacious taxi drivers when one needs to get to the ferry quickly.

Ah the problems historic engineerng has caused us! I only found the Shakespeare Cliff tunnels recently. It feels really odd driving down the road tunnel to Samphire Hoe so close to the rail tunnel. Knowing they don't intersect is one thing, but the feeling is bizarre. Or is that just me?

Captain Sam wrote:Ah the problems historic engineerng has caused us! I only found the Shakespeare Cliff tunnels recently. It feels really odd driving down the road tunnel to Samphire Hoe so close to the rail tunnel. Knowing they don't intersect is one thing, but the feeling is bizarre. Or is that just me?

It is nearly 20 years since I was in a train going to Dover which was stopped at a signal opposite that spot, and I caught sight of the preliminary work building the tunnel.

Foolishly I invested in it.

I didn't know there is a road tunnel to get there. I presume that was originally a road access to the building site. Nearly all the material was delivered by train.

The original prospectus seems to have assumed the ferries would fade away, or that fares would remain high. But the ferries improved their procedures, cut their costs and continued to run. Service has worsened in my experience. The Hovercraft went, and the successor catamarans. The ferries no longer take foot passengers at night, my favourite time. The ferry t Oostende has come and gone. At present there is some kind of ferry from Ramsgate.

I have a soft spot for Dover. I've spent some time there recently, getting to know the place. If you ignore the port area and just treat it as a provider of emplyment the town is surprisingly pleasant, though with a one way system you would kill to avoid. Except you can't.

I think the rail upgrade will be the making of the place. There's huge port investment happening, so local sources tell me, and the possibility of a university taking over the old barracks near Burgoyne Heights. Property prices have been stable for a while, but are starting to rise at the bottom end of the market, presumably dragged by the rail plans and the upper sector selling at a premium because the commute, albeit to St Pancras, is to become quick.

I've taken a pragmatic view and am buying a couple of houses there at the low end of the market because I see that rail and local investment will be a winner. Time will tell.

I found an interesting site with descriptions of the rail projects around London. Here is a link to the page on the CTRL improvements which also includes the projected service patterns.

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/4

JOn

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Captain Sam wrote:I think the planned 1 hour 10 minutes commute into London will make people use them. Dover property prices are so low currently that you can buy a mansion there and have change for the season ticket. But that does mean tehy are missing a trick by making you (presumably) drive to Ashford if you want to get to Paris (etc).

I think property prices are likely to leap, though, when the Priory station is upgraded. Folkestone saw a similar effect.

Does this mean they will keep the thrid rail in the Dover area, or will they be upgrading to overhead power?

In 2009, Class 395 high-speed rail cars will be introduced by Southeastern shortening the commute to London from Ashford to 36 minutes.

Southeastern's high-speed trains

geoking66 wrote:
In 2009, Class 395 high-speed rail cars will be introduced by Southeastern shortening the commute to London from Ashford to 36 minutes.

Southeastern's high-speed trains

I don't think "rail car" is a good description of what is actually based on Hitachi's Bullet trains in Japan.

The main modification is fitting equipment to use the third rail on the existing routes which will feed into High Speed One (the new name for CTRL).