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  • Trackage through Sanborn, NY

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

 #1548249  by dj_paige
 
G-Macs looks like a relatively new structure (see photo 2), and I looked at it carefully because it does indeed look like it might have been station at one time. Furthermore there is no existing station in Sanborn listed at http://ny.existingstations.com/w/index. ... York_State.

Also, there is the remains of a siding on the north side of the tracks along Niagara Street (and west of 429) see photo 1
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 #1548295  by ctclark1
 
There is still a "station" named SAN on the timetables, the sign is just East of Buffalo St/Ward Rd. I assume after the signal system was removed this was used for block purposes when issuing track clearance? It is co-located with the last remaining signal on the line - the approach signal before CP 69 at the Tuscarora Wye and the Niagara Falls Branch.

The reason I say this is that the other two named points on the line that are still noted in ETTs - JUNC and PORT - appear to coincide with the old GM/Harrison Radiator yard and the Somerset switch, and would make sense to me for utilizing them when issuing Form Ds?
 #1548298  by TrainDetainer
 
ctclark1 wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:48 pm There is still a "station" named SAN on the timetables, the sign is just East of Buffalo St/Ward Rd. I assume after the signal system was removed this was used for block purposes when issuing track clearance? It is co-located with the last remaining signal on the line - the approach signal before CP 69 at the Tuscarora Wye and the Niagara Falls Branch.

The reason I say this is that the other two named points on the line that are still noted in ETTs - JUNC and PORT - appear to coincide with the old GM/Harrison Radiator yard and the Somerset switch, and would make sense to me for utilizing them when issuing Form Ds?
Correct. When the signal system was first retired east of 69, it was all DCS territory. At first, under CR rules the DS could give verbal clearance for passenger trains to turn at 69 with one train-length of headroom into DCS. When CSX took over and changed to their MBS rules, all trains required Form Ds to enter (no more headroom). Was a real PIA for DSs and Amtrak three times a day to issue a form as the rules changes also came to include (due to a wreck and EO someplace) engineers not being able to take a form on the fly. They had to be stopped to take a form or the CDR had to do it, but on AMTK there's no way to get a copy to the head end on the fly either. And with the CDR busy and short staffed, they usually either had to take it when stopped at Depew or Exchange, adding delay if the DS was busy at the time. After many complaints about the thoughtlessly self-caused situation, someone came up with the bright idea to make 69 to SAN ABS again with the old distant signal returned to full service, so no more Form D nonsense to turn passenger trains every day.

JUNC was often used back when we had two jobs working Lockport at the same time. One typically went to Lockport and the other worked Harrison Radiator (GM). The westbound day job would sometimes be held at JUNC until the afternoon Harrison job got out there from NiaFalls and cleared JUNC. Usually depended on how late they were as the day job had to get hot cars back to NiaFalls to make NFSE departure. In some situations like that the DCS was a little easier to work around as the ABS signals only allowed one way operation at a given time between 59 and 69. Invariably with ABS the afternoon job would call up and say they were on their way out and a few minutes after lining them up all the way to 59, the previously unheard from day job would come on the radio and ask to go home, then have to wait for the signals to burn off if they were both late.
 #1548326  by DGC-24711
 
With eyes on this thread now from those who worked the Falls Road, does anyone know when trains stopped running the track that swung north east towards Lockport at the west end of Erie Ave in North Tonawanda?

Was there a junction/connection with the Falls Road? All I can tell is that it at least went to where the Stevens Street bridge is now, over the Erie Canal in Lockport.

My first guess is that Conrail scaled that line back (just west of Townline Road/Hoffman) 40+ years ago..
 #1548342  by BR&P
 
PORT was where the line to the Somerset power plant diverged from the Falls Road main. IIRC going back about 12 years, it was to be left lined for the plant, no doubt to avoid long coal trains having to stop and line it. When Falls Road received a unit corn train, the handoff was west of there at Junction Road, and permission and forms had to be obtained from the dispatcher to proceed east, line the PORT switch, and continue east onto the FRRR proper. Usually an employee in a highway vehicle re-lined the switch once the grain was past.
 #1552037  by ctclark1
 
DGC-24711 wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:20 am With eyes on this thread now from those who worked the Falls Road, does anyone know when trains stopped running the track that swung north east towards Lockport at the west end of Erie Ave in North Tonawanda?

Was there a junction/connection with the Falls Road? All I can tell is that it at least went to where the Stevens Street bridge is now, over the Erie Canal in Lockport.

My first guess is that Conrail scaled that line back (just west of Townline Road/Hoffman) 40+ years ago..
'76 CR Track Chart shows the Lockport Branch (not to be confused with CSX's Lockport Subdivision) ending at a freight house near West Genesee (now West Ave) and Hawley Streets. The Gulf Line branched off near Hinman Rd, snaked through the quarry and crossed under the Falls Road, north of which this is now part of the Somerset line, but the Track Chart shows no connection to the Falls Road proper. The Falls Road Branch TC corroborates both of these statements -- There is no connection to the Lockport Branch shown within the city, and the Gulf Line is shown as a bridge only, no connection.

North of the Falls Road Branch where the Somerset Branch now crosses Eighteenmile Creek, the Gulf Line stayed to the south. The Lowerton Branch off the Falls Road served the north side of Eighteen Mile Creek, which is actually now served off a switchback track off the Somerset (if that's even still active?).

'83 Track Chart shows the CR Lockport Branch intact from North Tonawanda to Lockport in the same configuration, by the 1985 TC it is shown as two separate chunks, from NT to Martinsville, and then from "L&O Junction" (where the Gulf Line connected) to the end previously mentioned in Lockport. It appears at some point CR built the "Olcott Branch" to connect the former NYC Lowerton Branch with the former EL Gulf Line Branch and used this to get back to the northern end of the Lockport Branch, still having no connections between the NYC Falls Road and the EL Lockport or Gulf Line branches yet. By 1996 the Somerset Railroad was constructed by the power plant and CR had abandoned the remainder of the EL Lockport/Gulf lines and the NYC Lowerton and CR Olcott branches, but I don't have specific dates for that, I can just tell you they were gone by the 1996 TC.
 #1552038  by ctclark1
 
BR&P and TrainDetainer, thank you for those tidbits! Operations have always fascinated me and hearing how things were and have evolved through the years, and even something as little as why there was always that one "out of place" signal in Sanborn, is something that brightens my days up!
 #1552064  by DGC-24711
 
ctclark1 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:07 pm
North of the Falls Road Branch where the Somerset Branch now crosses Eighteenmile Creek, the Gulf Line stayed to the south. The Lowerton Branch off the Falls Road served the north side of Eighteen Mile Creek, which is actually now served off a switchback track off the Somerset (if that's even still active?).
Never seeing the CSX take cars on that switchback (which you can see looking south from the Old Niagara Rd bridge), I've noted tank cars behind the gate at Van De Mark on Mill St and single tank cars sitting on the bridge over Upper Mountain Road, as if the rest of the cars are being taken to Lockport Yard and then that car will be taken up to VDM.

Last night the CSX led train was stationary just past the signal pole that lies just west of that Upper Mountain Rd bridge. The light was green, I was the passenger in the car and no time for watching..

Thanks ctclark1 for the info!