New York Central Penn Yan Branch

Really there is no need. We've talked about it back then for some length. I even built a train set and model of Birketts w 206 windows. And I interviewed Lou Potts who ran trains on the branch and the trolleys in PY too.

K4Pacific wrote:And I interviewed Lou Potts who ran trains on the branch and the trolleys in PY too.

When did you interview Lou Potts?

Lou Potts? Is he mentioned in the Keuka lake Memories book? I know I've seen that name somewhere. I also have stuff from the collection of Benjamin Clark (including two framed pictures of the PY B'port and KP Trolley) who worked on the Elmira branch for 51 years until 1936.

Yes. Lou Potts. I interviewed him in the early 70s. He the one that worked the NYC branch. He also worked the PY Bport trolley. I have a great story where they lost brakes on Elm St. He went from one end of the car to the other shouting get out of the way until the car seesawed to the bottom of the grade near where the Penn Yan Diner is.

The NYC branch lasted into PC until the flood. I have more but must MC

joshuahouse wrote:Has anyone asked with the Yates County Historical Society? Chuck Mitchell would have a very good idea about any of this info.

Agreed. I'm headed back down to the Finger Lakes next month, so I'll try to do some investigation of the area around Birkett's Mils.

One reason why I think there may have been an interchange in Penn Yan would have been for PRR to have access to the lucrative steamboat traffic via interchange with the NYC. The Pennsy was doing good business interchanging with lake traffic in Canandaigua and Watkins Glen, so it may have have been willing to work with the NUC to get more lake business in Penn Yan. (FWIW, PRR was interchanging freight with lake barges in Canandaigua until 1967.) Thus I wouldn't rule out an interchange yet... although I will admit the absencne of an interchange on a Sanborn fire map does make me quite a bit more skeptical than before. Inspecting the area for signs of an interchange grade should help me make up my mind.

jayenelee wrote:During the time between the World Wars (at least) their was no interchange even in Himrod. Far as I can tell the main Northern tier interchanging was in Phelps and Newark; Don't know about Sodus Point.

Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch indicates that Himrod was a longtime interchange point for coal traffic. That said, the subject of other PRR/NYC interchange points should prboably constitute another thread.

Track chart

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45085819@N02/4766052881/

Prr track map

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45085819@N ... otostream/

What a ride it must have been a grade of over 2 per cent and curves up to 17º.
Charles

Matt Langworthy wrote:

joshuahouse wrote:Has anyone asked with the Yates County Historical Society? Chuck Mitchell would have a very good idea about any of this info.

Agreed. I'm headed back down to the Finger Lakes next month, so I'll try to do some investigation of the area around Birkett's Mils.

One reason why I think there may have been an interchange in Penn Yan would have been for PRR to have access to the lucrative steamboat traffic via interchange with the NYC. The Pennsy was doing good business interchanging with lake traffic in Canandaigua and Watkins Glen, so it may have have been willing to work with the NUC to get more lake business in Penn Yan. (FWIW, PRR was interchanging freight with lake barges in Canandaigua until 1967.) Thus I wouldn't rule out an interchange yet... although I will admit the absencne of an interchange on a Sanborn fire map does make me quite a bit more skeptical than before. Inspecting the area for signs of an interchange grade should help me make up my mind.

'Twill be interesting to see what you find. I spent many hours at Oliver House museum and copied many Newspaper clippings etc that indicated no interchanges ever existed in PY. One written in 1940 said that the interchange in Himrod had been severed in WW1.
I would sooner suspect that PRR picked up Keuka lake interchange traffic via the B+H line at Hammonsport with trackage rights over the Erie, as they did have trackage rights in Elmira at one time.

That all being said, the pictures of trains being loaded at PY with grapes do often include "Pennsylvania Lines" reefers in the line up... so interchanging happened somewhere, to be sure.
As I recall the marine freight, at least Grape business on Keuka ended in the Thirties.

[quote="Matt Langworthy"][quote="joshuahouse"] (FWIW, PRR was interchanging freight with lake barges in Canandaigua until 1967.)

Not to excessively argue historical trivia, but having lived in Canandaigua from 1953 to 1975, I am pretty sure there was no barge traffic of any kind on the lake in 1967, nor any time after, say, the 1920s. The Pennsy spur that ran down to the city pier was gone from the pier itself sometime well before 1967. Not sure of the date, but the spur did continue to exist as far as Lakeshore Drive for several industries located on the south side of town--the whole thing could've been abandoned in 1967. The tracks crossing Lakeshore Drive continued to by visible for many years after 1967, but in my lifetime there have never been any tracks remaining visible on the pier where the lake trade used to interchange with the Pennsy.

Recall that the PRR spur to the Canandaigua City Pier was intact as late as the summer of 1965 as I used to cross it on Rts. 5 & 20 at least once a week.

FRA files show:

Pennsylvania Railroad Canandaigua Lake Branch, 1.4 miles, abandoned in 1967.

And sometime 1963-1965 I saw a 40' PRR boxcar down near the pier. It was just south of Seager Marine. I presumed the location served as a public delivery or "team" track where freight could be transferred from car to truck.

VTM

jayenelee wrote:

Matt Langworthy wrote:

joshuahouse wrote:Has anyone asked with the Yates County Historical Society? Chuck Mitchell would have a very good idea about any of this info.

Agreed. I'm headed back down to the Finger Lakes next month, so I'll try to do some investigation of the area around Birkett's Mils.

One reason why I think there may have been an interchange in Penn Yan would have been for PRR to have access to the lucrative steamboat traffic via interchange with the NYC. The Pennsy was doing good business interchanging with lake traffic in Canandaigua and Watkins Glen, so it may have have been willing to work with the NUC to get more lake business in Penn Yan. (FWIW, PRR was interchanging freight with lake barges in Canandaigua until 1967.) Thus I wouldn't rule out an interchange yet... although I will admit the absencne of an interchange on a Sanborn fire map does make me quite a bit more skeptical than before. Inspecting the area for signs of an interchange grade should help me make up my mind.

'Twill be interesting to see what you find. I spent many hours at Oliver House museum and copied many Newspaper clippings etc that indicated no interchanges ever existed in PY. One written in 1940 said that the interchange in Himrod had been severed in WW1.
I would sooner suspect that PRR picked up Keuka lake interchange traffic via the B+H line at Hammonsport with trackage rights over the Erie, as they did have trackage rights in Elmira at one time.

That all being said, the pictures of trains being loaded at PY with grapes do often include "Pennsylvania Lines" reefers in the line up... so interchanging happened somewhere, to be sure.
As I recall the marine freight, at least Grape business on Keuka ended in the Thirties.

Keuka also had better highways along its shores, along with ports at each end of the lake. Naples is actually a few miles south of Canandaigua Lake, which has a marsh at its south end. Thus there would be a much better reason for lake traffic to last longer on Canandaigua than Keuka Lake.

Pennsy never would have had a chance at interchanging with the B&H, which (according to Keuka Lake Memories) was one of most profitable branchlines on the Erie. Reciprocal rights in the Elmira area make sense, as there was mutual benefit for the Erie and PRR there. Similarly, the Pennsy and NYC did interchange in the city of Canandaigua... which almost certainly included lake traffic, so it seems entirely possible IMO that a mirror arrangement could have existed in Penn Yan. At the end of the day, I think it will come down to the physical evidence (assuming any is left).

Matt Langworthy wrote:
Keuka also had better highways along its shores, along with ports at each end of the lake. Naples is actually a few miles south of Canandaigua Lake, which has a marsh at its south end. Thus there would be a much better reason for lake traffic to last longer on Canandaigua than Keuka Lake.

I'm not really familiar with that history of Canadagua lake, and it has been educational to see the discussion in this thread. I never knew for sure that there was a rail branch to Canadagua lake in Canadagua, though I highly suspected it.

Pennsy never would have had a chance at interchanging with the B&H, which (according to Keuka Lake Memories) was one of most profitable branchlines on the Erie. Reciprocal rights in the Elmira area make sense, as there was mutual benefit for the Erie and PRR there. Similarly, the Pennsy and NYC did interchange in the city of Canandaigua... which almost certainly included lake traffic, so it seems entirely possible IMO that a mirror arrangement could have existed in Penn Yan. At the end of the day, I think it will come down to the physical evidence (assuming any is left).

I was just razzin' ya with that possibility, (which I pretty well knew was never the case) with the point that such an arrangement was more likely than finding an interchange in PY. Physically speaking, the only possibilty for such an interchange would have been a link between the Branchport and Keuka Park line on Elm St, and the Birkett Mills complex via Basin street.
I am not aware of tracks ever occupying Water Street (or Basin street for that matter). And needless to say, the curve required to enter Basin Street would be very difficult to impossible to envision. Let me know when you are in town, I'd be glad to help search for evidence if I had the time that day.

Believe I brought up that there was a possibility of a NYC/PRR connection in Penn Yan via the Keuka Park trolley earlier in this thread. I doubt that this possibility was ever fact, however.

jayenelee wrote: I was just razzin' ya with that possibility, (which I pretty well knew was never the case) with the point that such an arrangement was more likely than finding an interchange in PY. Physically speaking, the only possibilty for such an interchange would have been a link between the Branchport and Keuka Park line on Elm St, and the Birkett Mills complex via Basin street.
I am not aware of tracks ever occupying Water Street (or Basin street for that matter). And needless to say, the curve required to enter Basin Street would be very difficult to impossible to envision. Let me know when you are in town, I'd be glad to help search for evidence if I had the time that day.

OK, I see what you mean. I'm still working on my travel plans (akak waiting for family to tell me what they're doing) so I'll let you know when I'll be in PY.