Through Running Instead of Penn South?

BobLI wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 8:38 pm LIRR always had commuter service to Penn. Didn’t PRR commuter service end in NJ?

PRR local and suburban service mostly used Exchange Place until 1961. LIRR always had Brooklyn (Atlantic
Avenue), the original western terminus of the LIRR before Penn Station was Long Island City (now only limited
weekday service).

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 6:25 pm

Literalman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:30 pm "Penn Station was never meant to handle commuter traffic, only multi-state traffic (IE: Amtrak only, not LIRR" Redwolf, do you mean the 1960s version of Penn Station. Wasn't the LIRR commuter service part of the planned operations at the station from the beginning?

It was not. In fact, there wasn't even subway service until it got added on later... and then LIRR came knocking. Soon you got the mess we got now.

RW - **The LIRR began running to Penn Station on September 8, 1910 via the East River Tunnels.**
**Three months later** - November 27, 1910 - The PRR opened the Hudson/North River Tunnels to Manhattan
Transfer Station, NJ - which was once located in the vicinity of Hudson Tower east of Harrison. The line was
electrified with third rail - a group of DD1 electric locomotives brought trains into Penn Station.

The PRR T&HS has chronological listings by year of the history of the PRR with subsidiaries and successors -
http://prrths.com/newprr_files/Hagley/P ... _intro.htm
1910 has information about the opening of Penn Station and the completion of the East and Hudson/North
River Tunnels for the record...MACTRAXX

The LIRR/MN dual-modes are just stupid, but they've dragged their feet for so long on just electrifying that now they're forced into that boondoggle.

Penn Station is taking way too much load. Yes, it needs to be improved, but don't forget the third core action that I listed above, which is to redistribute service equally to Hoboken/Brooklyn/LIC with a new ferry terminal at LIC, and vastly improved ferry service at both, along with equal service to Brooklyn. With that and improvements to the LIRR's network, along with full connectivity for the various NJT lines to feed either station, you're looking at a very significant increase in capacity of both systems while simultaneously significantly reducing the service to Penn. There's nothing wrong with service to Penn, but service to other terminals should be equally as good if not better, along with a very robust ferry service for Hoboken/LIC, and taking advantage of existing subway connections in Brooklyn. That could easily be combined with LIRR ESA to GCT.

You keep bringing up ferries, but no one wants to switch modes. The easiest way to unload Penn is to stop having demand there, and that's what you're going to get by forcing people to transfer.

Nobody wants to switch modes? How many people go from train to subway? That's a mode change.

Personally don't mind hopping from rail to a ferry. Did it many times in Hong Kong.... a few minutes on the water with a view is far more relaxing than the same time trapped underground in a steambath car.....

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

You don't mind, other people do. Why do you think LIRR is tunneling to GCT? Because people don't like switching to the subway either. Why did property values on the M&E explode after Midtown Direct service launched? Because people don't want to be bothered with a ferry. Especially in the northeast, where we have real weather and no one wants to be stuck on a ferry in the middle of a storm.

lensovet wrote: ↑Mon Sep 05, 2022 12:07 am You don't mind, other people do. Why do you think LIRR is tunneling to GCT? Because people don't like switching to the subway either. Why did property values on the M&E explode after Midtown Direct service launched? Because people don't want to be bothered with a ferry. Especially in the northeast, where we have real weather and no one wants to be stuck on a ferry in the middle of a storm.

Lets put it in context here. You're coming in on the LIRR. You work near Wall Street. Yeah, you're an investment banker but you don't make enough to afford your own private helicopter to the office. Lets face it, you ain't Warren Buffet. So you're stuck getting off at Hunters Point Avenue and transferring to the 7 to Grand Central, then jamming yourself into a 4 or 5 to get to Wall Street; or you're getting off at Long Island City to take a ferry to a bus to the subway, and you'll have to transfer anyway inside the subway; or you're going all the way to Penn Station and grabbing the 2 or 3 to get to Wall Street, having to back-track, effectively.

Remember, pre-pandemic the 4/5/6 were jammed full and running over capacity, thus why they're (finally) building the 2nd Ave line to lighten the load up on that. What LIRR to GCT would do? Well, lighten up a bit of Penn but dump a lot of folks onto the 4/5/6/7 and 42nd street Shuttle. It'll shake up a lot of stuff and it'll take some time to settle back down.

Meanwhile, the ferries require you to get off at Hoboken and grab a light rail line to the ferry (maybe a bus between it and the ferry) and then the ferry over... and then another bus to a stop closer to your destination or the subway.

Here's the other thing to consider: Remember, PATH goes to WTC, Newark Penn, and Hoboken. You could skip half the mess entirely if you were coming in from New Jersey. Just how many people tried the MidTown Direct only to switch back to going to Hoboken/Newark and taking PATH because it was quicker?

I really think the ferries exist because everything else was full.

I don't follow. There are ferries directly from Hoboken. Why would you need light rail or bus?

I suspect the number of switchers going to Hoboken is not very high given that there are few direct Hoboken trains left. e.g. between 6 and 9, only 4/12 trains are direct.

When I worked at 26 Broadway in the 1960's the preferred route for Long Islanders was Jamaica to Atlantic Ave., thence IRT 7th Ave. or Lex train (later 2-3 and 4-5); at that time there were some through Brooklyn trains from east of Jamaica -- as well as a level, stairway-free transfer from the LI to the IRT Manhattan-bound local track, I think used by 7th Ave. trains. (Say goodby to that when ESA starts.) I think that at the time the fare to Brooklyn was lower than to Penn Station.

It sounds great but I can't see it happening here unfortunately.

lensovet wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:04 pmYou keep bringing up ferries, but no one wants to switch modes. The easiest way to unload Penn is to stop having demand there, and that's what you're going to get by forcing people to transfer.

I don't disagree that everyone would love a one-seat ride to the front door of their office, but that's just not practical, and many today switch to subways, particularly from Penn. Ferries would actually bring some people closer to their final destination in less time than going into Manhattan via train, and it would provide much more resiliency and redundancy in case one of the Manhattan terminals is unavailable for a period of time.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:11 pmI really think the ferries exist because everything else was full.

Ferries are heavily underutilized in NYC. There are a lot of places that could be much more easily accessed by ferry service, especially from the LIC side. It wouldn't replace all train service to Manhattan, but it should take its equal share of traffic provided good connecting ferry service. Much of the Wall Street area is within a few blocks of the water, surely 50' of dock space somewhere could be acquired down there for battery-electric ferries from LIC to dock up? And there are tons of other places people work and want to go within walking distance of the eastern shore of Manhattan. Same for the western shore and improved service from NJ. You could probably even make ferries that loop around either side in lower Manhattan that are still time competitive with jumping on this subway or that subway.

NJ Transit and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority have rejected a plan for through running in favor of a much more expensive plan to add 8 stub-end terminal tracks for NJ Transit, reports the New York Post https://nypost.com/2023/07/28/mta-nj-tr ... cier-plan/. The study of through running was commissioned by the MTA. The plan would have boosted "the current maximum number of trains that can fit through Penn and under the Hudson River by 20%-45%, from 24 trains per hour to as many as 35, "according to the Post.

Weird how the post makes a clickbait headline and then doesn't publish they obtained under freedom of information.

don't see how legally MTA and NJT could combine operations though. doesn't surprise me that they would much rather prefer to keep things separate.

lensovet wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:09 am don't see how legally MTA and NJT could combine operations though. doesn't surprise me that they would much rather prefer to keep things separate.

MTA and NJT can enter into a contract to combine operations, as was done for the Port Jervis line. The NJ Statute expressly provides that NJT can operate in other states, and NY law is likely similar, or if needed, a simple amendment enacted to that effect. The NJ law reads in pertinent part:
"N.J.S.A. 27:25-3 Definitions.
3. As used in this act:
a. "Corporation" means the New Jersey Transit Corporation.
g. "Rail passenger service" means and includes the operations of a railroad, subway, street, traction or electric railway for the purpose of carrying passengers in this State or between points in this State and points in other states."

Reference immediately preceding, MNRR operates trains on behalf of CTDOT; I don't see NYS as an issue. One thing; would each agency contribute equipment to a dedicated fleet? Would the service be branded?

Technologically, there's not much to overcome using equipment already in possession. I'd imagine an added benefit we may not have discussed would be NJT reverse-commute operations onto the Harlem River line from NJ for the new MNRR Penn service.

Finally, "Train Daddy" Andy Byford, now of Amtrak, is all for it: Our Town NY

Byford Urges ‘Through Service’ that Would Allow NJ Transit, LIRR and Metro North to Run on One Another’s Tracks

The former boss of New York’s subways and buses says the region has a “golden opportunity” to expand commuter rail service while at the same time saving the block south of Penn Station from demolition to make way for a new terminal for New Jersey Transit.

The official, Andy Byford, hailed for improving subway and bus service, embraced the idea of running commuter trains through Penn Station, rather than terminating them there.

This so called “through-running” would allow NJ Transit and the Long Island Railroad to run more trains, but it would also require them to integrate their operations so Long Island trains could run through to New Jersey and Jersey Transit trains could carry passengers into Queens, and the Bronx via Metro North and perhaps beyond.
...