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Hopefully of interest around here beyond us CPA's:

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... FY2019.pdf

What I feared, but kept to myself, is that the "almost breaking even" loss of $30 or so M, is actually an "EBIDTA" measurement. Like the Statement of Cash Flows, EBITDA represents an expression of Household Accounting ("Cookie Jar" was the expression I used with my clients).

To arrive at the "touted number", Go the Statements of Operations, identify Loss of $893M, subtract Depreciation of $870, and there is $23, or in the league of the $30.

I'm sorry, but to me Depreciation is just as much an expense as is Locomotive Fuel, for it represents a systematic charging of funds expended for Capital projects to Expense over the estimated life of the project.

Have fun yanking the Statements apart.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:23 am Hopefully of interest around here beyond us CPA's:

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... FY2019.pdf

What I feared, but kept to myself, is that the "almost breaking even" loss of $30 or so M, is actually an "EBIDTA" measurement. Like the Statement of Cash Flows, EBITDA represents an expression of Household Accounting ("Cookie Jar" was the expression I used with my clients).

To arrive at the "touted number", Go the Statements of Operations, identify Loss of $893M, subtract Depreciation of $870, and there is $23, or in the league of the $30.

I'm sorry, but to me Depreciation is just as much an expense as is Locomotive Fuel, for it represents a systematic charging of funds expended for Capital projects to Expense over the estimated life of the project.

Have fun yanking the Statements apart.

In accounting terms you are of course correct. If Amtrak was a "normal" company, breaking even on the operations merely means wearing down the capital plant, and not being able to renew it. Sooner or later bankrupcy will be the result.

However, in Amtrak's world it's pretty significant, not least politically. There's a lot of difference between "the budget financing new rolling stock and new tracks" and "the budget is subsidizing every ticket with xx $ just to run the train". It's definately one of the reasons why Amtrak is in much less danger from Trump's continued proposals to cut its budget as it makes political support from both parties in Congress much easier to uphold. In practical terms it also makes the company somewhat more resilient towards any fluctuations in funding, should Trump be partly successful in his efforts.

Good point, Mr. Trainviews.

Government Accounting does not recognize depreciation. The USS Gerald Ford was simply expended over each FY it took to build her.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:17 pm Good point, Mr. Trainviews.

Government Accounting does not recognize depreciation. The USS Gerald Ford was simply expended over each FY it took to build her.

Depends if the entity is a business enterprise or not. Amtrak is in theory a business so it can take depreciation. The Navy is not so the concept does not exist.

Will pour gasoline on the fire. The December performance report noted that almost $200 M in progress payments for Acela-2s were not made. The report has temporarily has the capital expenditures blanked so no longer cite the exact figure. Wonder what that is all about ? Capital expenditures for the report as I understand it should not affect the operating deficit but find it strange ? ? ? ?

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... r-2019.pdf

Its not like private businesses don't use "EBIDTA" too. Its the main figure used to calculate the value of a business(vs a company) for sale , for example. So there's no one off asset sales etc to make the business look better, or some non operating expense making it look work worst. You then need an Accountant to work out the real story. But of course a business wouldn't consider a "EBIDTA" at or near zero to be a profit , it would expect it to be 20-30 % of turnover for e.g to be a profitable business.
Probably better to consider Amtrak's year to year performance, and on that score , it has improved.

For you non-accounting folks: Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization (EBITDA)

I'm more interested in the net cash flows. Of the above, interest is a cash-flow item. As a federal entity, taxes are not a concern. Depreciation and Amortization are paper expenses, book only, recognizing that previous cash was paid out for a long-term asset. It's a non-cash item.

If cash from operations is relatively neutral, I'm pretty happy, at least as far as NPRC is concerned.

Now, there's the capital investment. That's huge. But I think you could say that it's offset by economic impact, and potentially recaptured in taxes.

Before part of the 1st Q performance report got blanked out found an item that said Amtrak did not make over $200M in progress payments for Acela-2s ? Does that mean a possible problem. Some one here might know ?