The truth about Arrow III top speed?

I've had the opportunity to ride the Arrow l, II, III for many years while going to school and commuting to work. The Arrow II and III were built for 100 - 105 top speed. In actual running 80-85 was their normal max at this was the top end of their good acceleration range, over 85 they needed a good run to get to the century mark and even a mild grade would make that diffucult, I know I've seen them try. Years ago I remember reading some literature concerning general specs and a couple of them was acceleration rate and brake rate in miles/sec. I believe the accelaration rate was about 2 miles/sec and brake rate was 2.5 miles per second. I'll go through my records to see if still have a copy. There was a morning Trenton-Newark express in the 70's that ran speeds at or near the century mark daily. I used to see this train pass by as I waited for my train at Rahway, it was flying. I also remember reading about this train in a newpaper article. I understand that age is one of the factors that they are keeping the speed down. These units are close to 30 years old and been through one rebuild already. I been told that the Arrow III's might be reaching the end of their run as to do another rebuild will require updating a lot of things to meet new standards and regulations. Because of this and their age, it will probably be more cost effective to build new units. NJT is not considering push-pull as a replacement at this point, but will consider MU with power switching on the fly for mid-town direct. We see what happens.
______
Bob

On one of my first rides on an Arrow III, I was standing in the vestibule at the engineer's position catching a breeze from the side window. Thanks to the old analog instruments, I was able to watch the speedometer and the brake pipe pressure gauges (Simple minds are easily entertained).

Just after passing under I-287 westbound on the NEC, we hit 110. I asked a crewmember if that number was accurate. He leaned over, looked at the speedo and said "pretty darned close to it - we do that all the time." Considering that the old Metroliners were doing about 125, I though this was quite cool for a commuter train.

Hostler wrote:I've had the opportunity to ride the Arrow l, II, III for many years while going to school and commuting to work. The Arrow II and III were built for 100 - 105 top speed. In actual running 80-85 was their normal max at this was the top end of their good acceleration range, over 85 they needed a good run to get to the century mark and even a mild grade would make that diffucult, I know I've seen them try. Years ago I remember reading some literature concerning general specs and a couple of them was acceleration rate and brake rate in miles/sec. I believe the accelaration rate was about 2 miles/sec and brake rate was 2.5 miles per second. I'll go through my records to see if still have a copy. There was a morning Trenton-Newark express in the 70's that ran speeds at or near the century mark daily. I used to see this train pass by as I waited for my train at Rahway, it was flying. I also remember reading about this train in a newpaper article. I understand that age is one of the factors that they are keeping the speed down. These units are close to 30 years old and been through one rebuild already. I been told that the Arrow III's might be reaching the end of their run as to do another rebuild will require updating a lot of things to meet new standards and regulations. Because of this and their age, it will probably be more cost effective to build new units. NJT is not considering push-pull as a replacement at this point, but will consider MU with power switching on the fly for mid-town direct. We see what happens.
______
Bob

That would make sense. I've always had my doubts about NJT rebuilding the A3s. It would be just too dang hard. And this is too bad because these are great units.

Maybe they'll be run to the ground and maybe they'll be rebuilt. We'll just have to wait and see.

I'm sure they'll probably end up keeping the garbage and getting rid of the stuff that actually works. I guess that's just the way it is.

I'd love to see what the Comet Vs look like in 40 years, but I don't think they'll still be around. Prime example is the Comet IIIs: only less than 15 years old and they are completely falling apart.

arrow wrote:I'm sure they'll probably end up keeping the garbage and getting rid of the stuff that actually works. I guess that's just the way it is.

I'd love to see what the Comet Vs look like in 40 years, but I don't think they'll still be around. Prime example is the Comet IIIs: only less than 15 years old and they are completely falling apart.

Well, the C5s will probably have a rebuid and maybe they can fix some of the problems in them. I like these cars and their design. If it wasn't for some of the substandard equipment installed in them.

So then, if NJT doesn't rebuild the arrows (which is a distinct possiblity) then they'll have to purchase the Arrow 4s. I really hope these cars live up to the standard of the Arrows that came before it.

But it won't be the same. With long doors and all of the safety features, the days of crewmembers hanging out the doors when the train is stopping or starting are gone. Treasure these days of railroading because they'll be gone soon enough (like they are already gone on the Comet 2s and up.)

No firm decision has yet been made about the fate of the AIII's. NJT has gone back and forth on the issue, but nothing has been decided. There is no need for a decision yet, as any rebuilding, or retirement is still several years away at a minmum.

Having said that, I would like to throw in my $0.02 as someone who has to operate the AIII's on a regular basis. When it comes to acceleration, nothing beats them. Their brakes, when they work properly, are also pretty good. Thats about it in the pro column for the Arrows. The controller on the Arrows was quite obviously designed by someone who never had to use it. I would ask anyone to spend 8 hours running an MU train, and then tell me how your wrists feel. I still maintain that the MU controller was designed as a torture device originally, and therefore it naturally fits well in a railroad setting. The seats, in one word, are horrible. You try sitting on a piece of plywood with a quarter inch of foam on it all the way to Gladstone, and then tell me how you feel.

All those are only comfort issues. Lets not forget the rather high rate of equipment failures the AIII's suffer. As a passenger its not obvious, because even if one car or pair dies, the rest of the train can keep it moving along. Trust me, however, I know when half my train is dead, and that is just about every train in service today. The acceleration suffers, and more importantly, there is a significant loss of braking ability. Due to the addition of blended dynamic brake, and a failure rate of that dynamic brake that is close to 75%, most cars have no dynamic brake. That hoes not, however, prevent the computer from reducing the pneumatic brake effort to compensate for the dynamic brake effort, even though there is none.

Now I left out the issue about MU's being considered locomotives, and for good reason. While it does represent a significantly greater expense to inspect and maintain the MU's as locomotives, the issue is essentially moot, since NJT basically ignores a great deal of FRA regulations everyday, and so why should MU's be any different.

My personal opinion is that the AIII's should be scrapped, if they can not be rebulit to be more reliable, and easier on the engineer. Also, by reliable I mean that they actually all run for an entire trip, not that the train simply doesnt get stuck somewhere.

Finally, for anyone who wants the experience of running an MU, simply do this. Get a bar stool. Take off all of the padding, and put on one worn out piece of 1/4 inch foam. Then, sit on the edge of the stool and keep one foot flat on the ground at all times. Then, take a five pound weight in your left hand. Hold your left arm out in front of you, with the weight in your hand held vertically. Twist your arm and wrist until the weight is horizontal. Keep twisting you arm back and forth. Do that for about an hour and 45 minutes. Congratulations, your in Gladstone. Now do it again facing the other way for the trip back to Hoboken. During this time, keep in mind speed restirctions, out of serive tracks, obstructions, keep one ear on the radio, spot the train properly even though the brakes are working poorly, etc. If you want to simulate winter, do the above outside tonight. Have someone hold a small hot air heater 2 inches from the foot you have on the floor. Make sure it makes your foot sweat and burn while the rest of your body is cold.

don't you love him sometimes I wonder why he works on railroad but for $27 hour or so it must be fun, despite his convitions to tell us otherwise.

^Hahahaha! Great descrsiption Sirsonic. Well, the only real hands on experience with an Arrow control was with an Arrow 2 in 1990 when I was in kindergarten and the engineer let me take the controls (with supervision of course.) But I don't really remember too much about the experience. And back in December, I sat in the engineer's chair on a train for about 15 minutes (at the rear end of a train). And you're right, it was very uncomfortable.

It was quite funny actually:

A certain rear brakeman said to me: "Have a seat" and I did. And after a few minutes of that, I said to myself "OK, I'd rather stand!" And then I decided for sure that I didn't want to be an engineer! I think plywood would actually be more comfortable than that seat.

Oh and Sir, you work on the Gladstone huh? Well, if you ever see a certain person who is quite tall and wears glasses, clean shaven and has dark hair with a camera photographing trains in or around Berkeley Heights, that would probably be me.

I like my job, I never said I didnt. It is because I like my job that I want to see things change. There is no good reason that things have to be the way that they are. The only way anything will change is if the issues are brought to light.

If you would rather that I not interupt the AIII love fest with a glimpse of the reality of their operation and maintenence, then let me know and I will remove my post and drop out of this discussion. Considering that the issues I pointed out will factor into any decision that NJT makes about the AIII's and maybe AIV's, if they go that route, I thought you might like to know the truth about them. If you dont like the truth, I will go away.

Nick --

I dont work the Gladstone line on a regular basis (thank God), but Ill keep an eye out for you.

Sirsonic, have ever run MP-54's, Arrow 1's or the Old DL&W electrics. I know the cabs of the MP-54 were Spartan compared to Arrow III's. At least you have some foam on the board the call a seat. The MP-54 have just that a board plus they could be very rough riding. The Arrow I's were absolute disasters, doors opening at speed, doors not closing. They looked nice, waste of time and money building them, didn[t rn worth a darn after a few months. The Arrow II's were a big improvement, but too few were built, they got heavy use and ran pretty well, not much comfort for the engineer either. As I understand A 4's would have to have more comfortable and improved cabs plus other required safety upgrades. More than likely they would be run-by-wire arrangement with computers similiar to equipment today. I remember when the A-3's were delivered, they had more than the could use since the Morris& Essex lines were not converted to AC yet but the MP-54's were finally retired. Let's face it these cars have seen heavy use and since the A-2's are gone you have that much less MU's to work with, that's where the push/pulls come in. If the cars are breaking down like you say, I hope the NJT has something on the drawing board now, these MU's are almost 30 years old.

Sirsonic wrote:If you would rather that I not interupt the AIII love fest with a glimpse of the reality of their operation and maintenence, then let me know and I will remove my post and drop out of this discussion. Considering that the issues I pointed out will factor into any decision that NJT makes about the AIII's and maybe AIV's, if they go that route, I thought you might like to know the truth about them. If you dont like the truth, I will go away.

No, not at all. I greatly value your insight! Oh, and I am not at BH all the time. But certainly a lot! I just mentioned that in the odd chance I should be photographing a train of yours. You never know!

The Arrows are good vehicles IMO but like everything, they got their problems as you pointed out Sir. Now let the love fest continue!

Sirsonic, your input is always appreciated and welcome and I hope you do hang in there.

I recall as a kid that many guys drove their MP54s standing up all the way. The pull-down board seat was a joke - the vertical support would often kick loose and dump the unsuspecting engineer on the cab floor. Also, the controller was mounted pretty high up - just under the "porthole" and unless you were maybe 6'3 it was a long reach while sitting down.

Wall-mounted airline-style crew seats like those you see on 727's and 737's would be a lot more comfortable than what you now have and would still fold out of the way when the cab was not in use. Theyr'e used in the exit areas of 737's and 727's. NJT could install them tomorrow if they were so inclined.

I'm in favor of a rebuild for the biggest reason Sirsonic notes - acceleration. Rapid acceleration can clip minutes off schedules when stations are close together; more so than top-end speed. If NJT keeps adding stops, they're going to have to get faster acceleration (same argument applied about 95 years ago against the E6 Atlantics in favor of the K4 Pacifics)

Yeah, some of us can tell when there are too many "deaders." That's when the engineer starts braking in Colonia to stop at Metropark when we've only been doing 50 or so.

I got a cab ride last week with a friend's brother on a new set of LIRR M7's and the full-throttle acceleration was dramatic - you really had to hang on. We hit 115+ on the way to Babylon. The signs and announcements worked and all the doors opened at every stop except one. We ought to get some of that new technology from Bombo. They are AC motors AFAIK. Just stick some pans on top and let's go. :D Cabs seemed pretty comfortable too.

I like your description of the failure rates of the Arrows, saying that the passengers don't notice it. That's pretty much the main reason why Arrows are so great..half the train could be dead but the average passenger would never notice that. Those cars are like tanks, they have no trouble taking you where you need to go no matter what their actual condition may be.

Like anything, without proper maintenance it just won't work as well as it should. I remember a Bob Scheurle quote from the old railroad.net (the reaaaaallly old one before the last one) where he said, "It's ashame the MMC doesn't take better care of such expensive equipment." How true.

I'd swear the controller in the Arrows is for a freight elevator. Before the alertor pedal, you had to hold the handle in coast position or any power position ALL THE TIME. The only time you could let go of the handle was if you had suppression or if you wanted to dump it. And not even a split second of a grace period. That's why alot of guys would put the controller in upside down, among other methods. When they sent the AIIIs to ABB for rebuild, I thought for sure they'd return with a cab car style control stand. I was wrong.

I remember a few months ago I was in a set that acellerated like a 44 powered 10 car train or so... it was painfully slow and took forever to get up to speed. I had the same consist on the way home and it dumped air a couple of times and the engineer had to reset everything a couple of times.

AFAIK, when you are in a car, you are supposed to hear the motors working when you accelerate, and there is supposed to be the hum of the dynamics when the car slows down, otherwise there is something wrong with the car, right? I would have to agree as a passenger (if I am correct about the sound) that I hear the dynamics pretty infrequently nowadays.