• The Metro

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by AlexC
Not a done deal yet, but they’re putting out for comments …

https://billypenn.com/2021/09/07/septa- ... e-bsl-mfl/
The old symbols repping each line are detailed drawings of the specific trains that run on them, images that are basically meaningless to regular people: “It requires a detailed knowledge of rolling stock to be able to navigate,” Powers said.

Now, the routes will be identified by just one letter and plain background color:

The Broad Street Line: B with an orange background

The Market-Frankford Line: L with a blue background (since people usually call it the El or the L)

The Center City trolleys: T with a green background

The Route 15 trolley: G with a yellow background (because the route runs along Girard Avenue)

The Norristown High Speed Line: M with a purple background (M for Montgomery lines)

The Media-Sharon Hill Line: D with a pink background (D for Delaware lines)
  by PHLSpecial
The Delaware lines I confused for Delaware ave not Delaware county. The G trolley kinda makes no sense? It's still part of the Philly trolley network. Otherwise I love all these changes. I think it's a good template for the future. Especially with the bus revolution and regional rail changes coming.

I read about this plan to re-name SEPTA's rail rapid transit routes - I say emphatically **NO**

Back beginning in 1990 SEPTA tried to re-name the rail transit routes with color names - these were:
Blue Line - Market-Frankford Line
Orange Line - Broad Street Line
Green Lines - Routes 10, 11, 13, 34, 36 Subway/Surface Routes
These would have been the additional names if the color name scheme had been fully adopted:
Purple Line - Route 100 NHSL
Brown Lines - Media 101 and Sharon Hill 102 Rail Lines
Red Line - PATCO High Speed Line/Lindenwold Line (had PATCO gone along with the SEPTA renaming plan)

The 1990 color renaming scheme was an attempt to "Bostonize" Philadelphia's rail transit routes.
A former MBTA and SEPTA General Manager back in the 1980s may well have authored this plan.

SEPTA issued timetables during 1990 with the color name headings for the Market-Frankford Line, Broad Street
Line and the five Subway-Surface routes. The color names never took hold in Philadelphia and afterwards SEPTA
mentioned the color names in small lettering outlined by parentheses under the line name until 1993-1994 when
they were finally quietly withdrawn.

This new scheme looks to be even more confusing to me than the current well-established line names along
with their also well-established color coding. Implementing the numbers 1 and 2 - or the letters A and B for
the MFL and BSL would be less confusing but just not necessary.

Back 30 years ago Philadelphia rail transit riders shunned the plan for color names.
History may well repeat itself if enough passengers speak out against this new plan...MACTRAXX
  by nomis
Bring back the R’s. :-D
  by AlexC
nomis wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:12 pm Bring back the R’s. :-D
This plan is *begging* for the return of the R's, but considering they just went to all that trouble un-naming them from the R's they're not going to do that again.

Beside, you know they'd do something stupid like give them different numbers than the last set and instead of skipping R4 they would skip R1.
SS and AC: Interesting idea - instead of a single number for a line pairing each RRD line would have its own
R# and line name starting with the R1-Airport Line. The color yellow should have been retained for the route.
Would SEPTA attempt to bring back R numbers with a future RRD RER type operation?
Good question...MACTRAXX
  by rcthompson04
Would the old R system even make sense with how SEPTA has been rearranging the pairings? Even before the pandemic SEPTA had decoupled a lot of lines or coupled them in various fashions including different weekday and weekend pairings. We have seen some hints of the color scheme on the RRD side with the proposed Silver Line from Fern Rock to Penn Medicine.

This seems like a waste of money and added layer of confusion in my opinion.
RCT: With the changes in RRD line pairings the only rational way to bring back the R numbers - along WITH
the established NAME - would be to give each line its own number. I do agree with your thoughts about this being
just another way that can confuse riders. Another thought - if SEPTA plans to issue a new rail transit map - is to use
the topper colors on the various RRD timetables to color code the RRD lines on the map...MACTRAXX
Everyone: After further thought adding a single letter - or a two letter code to assist in identification of routes
this is what SHOULD be used ALONG with the existing colors and graphics:

M - Market-Frankford Line
B - Broad Street Line (the one letter code addition that I DO agree with)
T - 10, 11, 13, 34, 36 Subway Surface routes (reluctantly agree)
Route 15 - NO Change - G letter is not necessary
N - Norristown High Speed Line ("Montgomery Line" name change is NOT needed)

Re-naming the Media and Sharon Hill Lines is the one problem spot: D for "Delaware Lines" does NOT fully
identify the two routes and the proposed name can easily be confused for the nearby State of Delaware.
A thought would be to use DC for "Delaware COUNTY" to further clarify these two lines - and that they do
NOT get confused for DART or DTC in neighboring New Castle County, Delaware. Even using DC could
present a problem if anyone mis-identifies these routes for "Washington, DC" or "District of Columbia".

The problem that I have with this rail line identification plan is that this "dumbs down" the system to an
extent. Parts of this plan use rider "slang" to identify routes...The Market-Frankford Line in particular.
If SEPTA wants to go THAT route why not just rename the MFL "The EL" and the BSL "The SUB"... :wink:

As I will mention again I am no fan of this proposed plan...MACTRAXX
  by rcthompson04
I think they are getting really cute trying to use too many different systems. I would make this extremely simple and go with colors along the lines of MBTA for the non-bus transit:

Blue Line - MFL
Orange Line - Broad Street Line
Green Lines (Name of Specific Terminus added) -Subway Surface Trolleys
Purple Line - NHSL
Red Line - Patco
Yellow Lines (Name of Specific Terminus added) - Route 101 and 102

I would leave Route 15 and the trackless trolleys out of this scheme.

On the RRD, I think naming the terminus is the most important.
  by mcgrath618
From what I’ve heard, bringing back the Rs on Regional Rail is also part of the grander plan.
RCT: Color names for the various rapid transit routes as you propose is the very same plan that was rejected
by SEPTA riders 30 years ago as I previously mentioned. Keeping the traditional - and very well-established
line names turned out to be the better way then - as it should be now.

SEPTA introduced color coding for the rail rapid transit routes in the middle 1970s with the preparation for
the 1976 Bicentennial celebration in Philadelphia. The color coding helps further identify important routes
on maps, signs and even on some vehicles (there were some MFL M3 cars that had blue striping along with
the words "Blue Line" in white on the front ends) during the 1980s before the 1990 name change proposal.

Color coding and further identifying various routes has never been a problem.
The problem to me is changing a well-established and widely known name in favor of a color.
  by ExCon90
I think it would be helpful to return to the Rs (ironic to think that when they dropped the Rs they kept the same former numbers in the hundreds position of the train numbers, so in a sense the spirit of the Rs lives on behind the scene even today), but adopt the scheme -- advocated by a number of people at the time, but not adopted -- of assigning individual numbers for the two ends of each line, with numbers between 1 and 9 on the Penn side and 11 and 19 on the Reading side. That would avoid the situation in which some people, having been told to board an R5 for Ardmore, found themselves headed for Lansdale. In such cases someone waiting at Jefferson for an R5 might realize that something was wrong when all the trains posted were for R11 and up, and ask someone before getting on a train from that platform.
  by AlexC
MACTRAXX wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:25 pm Route 15 - NO Change - G letter is not necessary
N - Norristown High Speed Line ("Montgomery Line" name change is NOT needed)
Route 15 is leftover from PTC that makes no sense in the broader scheme. G works for the same reason B works. It's really the Girard Line.

Montgomery Line is also a good choice because service from 69th goes to Norristown (or eventually) King of Prussia. I would call it Montco Lines - if only to pair it up with my preferred "Delco Lines" - which go to Delaware County, not Delaware State as "Delaware Lines" implies.
  by ExCon90
Delco and Montco would certainly avoid any possible confusion involving Delaware and Montgomery -- the newspapers use those terms all the time. I still think of the P&W but I can't help it -- that's what it was the first time I saw it.