Stack Train Questions

Just recently stumbled upon the story of how the NYS&W was able to set up the land bridge service with Sealand and Hanjin. It's pretty fascinating reading. I think I've got the basics down from searching the web and the forums but I did have a couple questions.

It looks like the stacks were passed to NYS&W at Buffalo from NS and CSX? Prior to the Conrail split I know NS had the ex-NKP line, but how did the CSX routing work?

It sounds like Conrail wasn't interested in double-stacks in the early 80's because they had a pretty lucrative piggy-back service and clearance issues on the ex-NYC "Water Level Route". When did they change their tune and start on the clearance projects? Did their entrance into double stacks put much of a dent in the NYS&W traffic? I was a bit surprised to see that the stacks continued to run on NYS&W until after the NS/CSX split of Conrail.

Thanks,
Reed

It's about leverage. Conrail was interested, they just wanted the business on their terms, they wanted SeaLand to share a common intermodal facility. NYS&W had the yard at Little Ferry for a dedicated facility for SeaLand, and so the deal began. But NYS&W was also well connected politically, a lot of the rebuilding and upgrading of the railroad in NJ was paid for by federal grants and low interest loans.
The hand-off in Buffalo was technically to D&H, they had gotten Southern Tier rights with the Conrail creation. D&H handed off to NYS&W in Binghamton. But run through power was the rule. That was the driver for the purchase of all those EMD -45's, and later the 4 GE -8-40B's, and the CSX-underwritten lease of many more.
See Hartley's From Shortlines to Stackpacks, I believe that's the best concise coverage of all this.

Thanks for the recommendation. I will try to find a copy.

I apologize, too, there's a second author to the book, Ken Karlwiecz I believe. There's another thread in here somewhere that discusses these books.

so why did nysw loose the stacks? any chance of getting them back?

A couple of things happened around the same time... Conrail went away, and about a year or two before, CSX bought SeaLand. Little Ferry had already been sold or at least long-term leased to SeaLand. So CSX put the stacks for SeaLand on a Buffalo / Selkirk route.
I believe NS had Hanjin and these boxes stayed for a while... mainly because of clearance issues on the Pennsylvania main line and no other high clearance routing besides the tier was available to them. But without Conrail, the business was aggressively bid by CSX, and this was about the time that both railroads were having difficulty digesting the acquisition.
Now I'm guessing, but I believe that NS was reluctant to bid too aggressively to maintain this business anyway, because CSX had the superior routing to the port area. So most of the traffic from Chicago went to CSX, a smaller portion at the time eventually ran through Harrisburg and Reading through Allentown, etc., once Pattenburg was upgraded.

So pretty much there's no chance of NYSW running stacks themselves again?

I worked at the ice house in hackensack from 98-04 and would remember hearing them approach the back of the building. Building would start to shake violently. Would run ot the window and watch for a while. Usually would happen every night around 8pm.

Not much use, for a railroad to carry containers from NJ, to a point northwest, where they are handed over to the same railroads, that share real estate, in NJ. Faster, and cheaper, to just hand them over to the carrier, that can carry them the farthest, fastest and cheapest. The split-up of Conrail spelled the end, of container traffic on the Suzy. Even a CP/DH/NYSW route makes no sense, with DH(CP) running into Oak Island, from any point on IT'S system.

I owned some Delaware Otsego stock during this time. Even running the stacks it was a marginal operation, and that with also receiving a lot of help from the federal government, and NY and NJ. As Golden Arm stated, you have a longer route and far steeper grades, so costs per mile in operating expenses have to be higher.
Right now, I think there's potential growth where they've looked for it, in transfills, trash, and those receivers on line that benefit by carload service. There are many significantly accessable properties available that have siding access as well, so overall freight revenue should increase so long as the business climate doesn't change radically.
But I think Walter and the Cooperstown crowd know that the value of the right of way involves NJT access, whether in a buy-out or a lease with significant upgrades.
I've asked the question before but I guess no one remembers the terms and conditions. Lautenburg was key in NYS&W securing a lot of money to reopen the line past Butler. But I remember there being strings attached, that there was some NJT takeover provision, or at least access. Whatever the situation, the line between Oakland and Hackensack has significant value, it just may be 5-10 years until the politicians and the transportation requirements demand action.

The book I referenced is correctly:
SUSQUEHANNA From Shortlines to Stackpacks, by Ken Karlewicz and Scott Hartley, published by Railpace, 1987.
The book doesn't appear to have an ISBN number, at least not the copy I have.

Couple of other points. The ONLY route into NJ by rail that had double stack clearances was the good old "High and Wide" Erie railroad. Hence the reason that Conrail, and then the NYS&W could run stacks down that line. Once double stacking caught on, Conrail and the other railroads got State and Federal monies to increase clearances on other lines. Why pay for it yourself, when you can con the gov't into doing it for you. Once the other lines had clearances all the stacks run by Conrail were removed from the Southern Tier.

By 1993 the NYS&W Little Ferry Yard was already owned by CSX. When I worked for Bergen County they came in with plans to expand the intermodal yard. The CSX name was the only name to appear on the plans. Sealand was purchased by CSX by the mid to late 1980s. NYS&W was being used as a bargaining chip by both CSX and NS. IMHO, by using the D&H, NYS&W routing they could keep rates on Conrail as low as the NYS&W for similar traffic.

Once CSX and NS decided to by Conrail, the writing was on the wall for the NYS&W hence the reason CSX and NS bankrolled the buy back of all the outstanding NYS&W stock. Its common stock is supposedly wholy owned by Mr. Rich now, with preferred stock being owned by NS and CSX (I may have that backwards) Mr. Rich gets to run the NYS&W without much oversight from CSX or NS, other than the more stringent insurance requirements placed on passenger excursions.

I have also heard that the NYS&W is making more money now running the construction debris than they ever made on the stack traffic.

Chris

"I have also heard that the NYS&W is making more money now running the construction debris than they ever made on the stack traffic. "

If this is the case, why is the motive power in the worst shape it's ever been and the running times the worst they've ever been?

Or did you just mean, PER CARLOAD they make more? In which case, we'll say 12 trains/week with say 60 cars apiece= 720 cars/wk, vs. in the mid 90s it was more like 5 Sealands a week at 80+ per train, 2 Hanjins/wk at 40+/- per train, 12 NS's a week at 60+/- per train, plus some additional carload traffic for a total probably in the range of 1300+/-cars/wk moved on the through trains.

That's easy, because that's all that's required. Last I looked, trash was not a time sensitive cargo. And the sheer number of axles and profitabilty is not a linear relationship.
Remember that during the stacks era, all those -45's were coming off leases, so power was relatively cheap. Also remember that NYS&W wanted to buy more Alcos, but CSX wouldn't accept them for Chicago run throughs. The -45's sucked up fuel, and I would guess that some of the cost was offset by pooling woth CSX.
But clearly the decision was around Little Ferry, and whatever rate division they could obtain with CSX. And CSX was actively competing with Conrail in areas where the geography overlapped. So it was in their best interests to support Susquehanna, that's why they covered the leases on the additional 40B-8's after NYS&W took the first four.
Now, I suspect that the Cartier Alco's were available, like the tunnel motors. The leasing companies are better structured now, and the railroads have active buyers for their more common units... the SD 40-2's for example. So the smaller users get what's left.
Let's see what the rebuilds look like. At one time, Susquehanna had Rome rebuilding the SD-45's, they arrived old and tired, but the guys up north appeared to do a good job restoring them. I'd like to hear Golden Arm's opinion on Rome's rebuilding, and how much TLC they were getting. The same may be possible out of Painted Post or wherever they're going now.
But it's a business decision...

I don't have an exact dollar amount, but those SeaLand, and Hanjin trains that Walter was running, are paid for per container, not per train. A five bagger can carry as many as 15 containers. It's not hard to do the math, on a train of any size. Paul and Murph , and the rest of the crew at the shops, did what they could, with what they had. With a roster of huge locos, the NYSW was sitting pretty, to run whatever came along. What came along, however, was a line rebuilt, from Butler to the connection at Sparta, except for the grade crossings. Years of freeze and thaw, impacts from snowplows, and rotten ties added up to so many spectacular derailments at grade crossings (wiping out a large portion of the roster) that the FRA closed the line, until EVERY crossing was removed, and replaced. The sudden loss of a large portion of the roster, left the survivors, to work, without rest (or repair) until the failures started to mount. Anyone around from the late 86 to early 89 period will remember the trains with 6, 8 or even 10 locos on the point, all "running" when departing Bingo, or Little Ferry. Same train, coming off the mountain, in either direction, would have half, or less, of the consist still running. Made for great railfanning, but it sucked, for railroading. Many mornings, I was racing west, with every engine left in the yard, to go "rescue" the train, stalled on the hill. The guys in our shops had their hands tied behind their backs. no engines to work on, and when one showed up, only enough time allowed, to get it running, and not necessarily repaired. Rome was good at what they were doing, and they sure put out a pretty package. (so did Andy Francovic, painting locos in the old roundhouse, at WS, all by himself) Sometimes the Rome stuff lasted, sometimes it didn't. The NYSW guys were really ALCO mechanics, and that's where their talents shined the brightest. If only they had the ability to resurect a derailed & destroyed loco. Those big piles of ALCO's, on the Sparta mountain, spelled the end of the C-430's, long before the mechanical failures would have done them in. Just my recollections, though.......

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:I don't have an exact dollar amount, but those SeaLand, and Hanjin trains that Walter was running, are paid for per container, not per train. A five bagger can carry as many as 15 containers. It's not hard to do the math, on a train of any size. Paul and Murph , and the rest of the crew at the shops, did what they could, with what they had. With a roster of huge locos, the NYSW was sitting pretty, to run whatever came along. What came along, however, was a line rebuilt, from Butler to the connection at Sparta, except for the grade crossings. Years of freeze and thaw, impacts from snowplows, and rotten ties added up to so many spectacular derailments at grade crossings (wiping out a large portion of the roster) that the FRA closed the line, until EVERY crossing was removed, and replaced. The sudden loss of a large portion of the roster, left the survivors, to work, without rest (or repair) until the failures started to mount. Anyone around from the late 86 to early 89 period will remember the trains with 6, 8 or even 10 locos on the point, all "running" when departing Bingo, or Little Ferry. Same train, coming off the mountain, in either direction, would have half, or less, of the consist still running. Made for great railfanning, but it sucked, for railroading. Many mornings, I was racing west, with every engine left in the yard, to go "rescue" the train, stalled on the hill. The guys in our shops had their hands tied behind their backs. no engines to work on, and when one showed up, only enough time allowed, to get it running, and not necessarily repaired. Rome was good at what they were doing, and they sure put out a pretty package. (so did Andy Francovic, painting locos in the old roundhouse, at WS, all by himself) Sometimes the Rome stuff lasted, sometimes it didn't. The NYSW guys were really ALCO mechanics, and that's where their talents shined the brightest. If only they had the ability to resurect a derailed & destroyed loco. Those big piles of ALCO's, on the Sparta mountain, spelled the end of the C-430's, long before the mechanical failures would have done them in. Just my recollections, though.......

Good story GA. Almost sounds like what it is today with power problems.