Southcoast Rail

Silly, because if the current station was north of the wye they wouldn't be building a new one...

When the SCR Middleborough Station was being planned, a location north of the wye was considered, I have stated before that I believe that this location should have been chosen instead of the current one, as it would work for all planned and proposed services through Middleborough. But again, the South Coast Rail DSEIR ruled it out because they would not be able to squeeze even half as many parking spots at that location as they would with the Pilgrim Junction location that is currently under construction.

CCRTA is MassDOT, MBTA is MassDOT. Passenger service over the route exists, it's just being adjusted. I think it's harder to make the case that it's a new service than it is to argue it isn't.

We got onto this subject by my stating that SCR was holding up other projects, Cape being an example, by being mandated as next. Regardless of what kind of requirement it is, legal or otherwise (remembering that not every legal mandate is tied to the Big Dig), it's obvious MassDOT wants to expand rail elsewhere and can't until some form of SCR happens. As I understand it anyhow, plans exist for rule 562 operation at least to Buzzards Bay, plus other improvements north of Middleboro. Sometimes things happen quietly, and it's not until it's time to flip the switch that anything is published about it. You don't have to trust my sources, but I do, and if we can't talk about things that aren't mentioned in published studies and news articles then why even come here to discuss it?

MOD NOTE: Feel free continue discussing cape service here for now. I will sort the necessary posts out to the Cape thread using care to not disrupt the continuity of this one.

MickD wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:16 pm I live on The Cape,and unless you could get
ALL the towns in on an upgrade to 79MPH from HTC
the investment's not worth it..P&B & Peter Pan,will
be too tough to compete with year round without that,and,I just don't believe
the daily commuter base is here..From my POV ,CR to Hyannis doesn't make sense..
CR to BB has for too long a time..C.2021 ,a town like Wareham has
had the demographic to support it for quite a while,and considering
the village itself, and it's immediate surroundings BB has that same
potential...

Who says it has to be a Commuter Rail? Why can't it be considered regional rail I feel it meets more the definition of the Downeaster or say the East West proposal. With a different mindset it sure makes sense. My only wish that will never happen is a shuttle service to Woods Hole from Buzzards Bay but we all know that will never happen.

We could have a service that goes from Boston to Falmouth and Yarmouth, splitting in Bourne, Falmouth may not be Woods Hole, but it's close enough.
Back to the South Coast, what are the thoughts around here regarding station locations?

CRail wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:50 am CCRTA is MassDOT, MBTA is MassDOT. Passenger service over the route exists, it's just being adjusted. I think it's harder to make the case that it's a new service than it is to argue it isn't.

Again, there is a difference between "service of any kind" and "intercity or commuter rail service". It quite clearly would be new "commuter rail" service in the eyes of the FRA. Regardless, the MTEA requirement and FRA approval still applies even if you consider it expanding existing service. These are exactly the type of loopholes the FRA is closing with regards to PTC.

CRail wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:50 am We got onto this subject by my stating that SCR was holding up other projects, Cape being an example, by being mandated as next.

I don't think anyone has argued that. You also said, in the very sentence before that...

CRail wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:41 pm I'm hearing service to Buzzards Bay will begin as soon as SCR opens.

I'm trying to point out that in the current environment this is practically impossible. The resources are all tied up and regulatory conditions do not exist for service to start that fast.

CRail wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:50 am As I understand it anyhow, plans exist for rule 562 operation at least to Buzzards Bay, plus other improvements north of Middleboro. Sometimes things happen quietly, and it's not until it's time to flip the switch that anything is published about it. You don't have to trust my sources, but I do, and if we can't talk about things that aren't mentioned in published studies and news articles then why even come here to discuss it?

I'm pointing out that in order for MassDOT/MBTA to do this kind of work and spend this kind of money something publicly has to be said about it. Whether it is a board approval or a competitive bid package. Or it'll be in the upcoming CIP they update every spring. They can't suddenly "flip the switch" after spending $50-70M in the dark. "Plans" for 562 operation and PTC are included and mentioned in the Cape study. What's the reality they will be ready for SCR start of service? Upgrades to the Middleboro Main are not. I've heard some rumors of the Middleboro upgrades and the why, but I don't see any of them even starting until SCR is completed. The resources just aren't there to perform the work, just as they aren't there to install 562 and PTC from Bay to the canal.

Lastly, I'll also add that a lot of "plans" from the quiet back room never materialize, or take forever to come to fruition, more often than they actually happen. It took 30 years to get Ash interlocking installed at Reading.

Freetown Station seems like a strange case to me, it is only projected to have 60 daily riders by 2030 and will only have 170 parking spaces, even though it is located just off Route 24 and is clearly supposed to provide a park-and-ride connection from it since there are no neighborhoods nearby that can supplement foot traffic to the station. It seems like this station really has little to no reason to exist, with the low amount of parking spots, low projected ridership, and being located in the middle of the woods, but I could be wrong, does anyone here know what the plan is for this station?
- Thanks

Not so sure that its out in the middle of the woods anymore. Ever since the extension of RT495 to R24 and beyond, Freetown, Berkley, Lakeville has seen a lot of development. There's a lot of houses in those woods. There's also the factor there is no "Freetown" station on the New Bedford mainline to handle that side of town and adjoining communities.

The circa-2009 plans for SCR, and their optimistic ridership projections, were based on plans for massive mixed-use developments at almost every station. See page 79 of this report for the Freetown plans. Unsurprisingly, no developer wants to spend tens of millions of dollars building a development next to a station with slow, low-frequency service, so Freetown station is instead next to a Stop&Shop warehouse and a storage place, with ridership projections thus reduced to 60.

Freetown is incredibly low-density, but they would have thrown a fit if they didn't get a single station. With some housing nearby, the chosen spot is about as not-terrible a Freetown station as is possible.

Unsurprisingly, no developer wants to spend tens of millions of dollars building a development next to a station with slow, low-frequency service

While I don't think Phase II service will be slow, it will definitely be infrequent and that's because of how the line will be run, with one train leaving South Station around every hour with alternating destinations, 5:25 AM Train 861 to Fall River, 7:00 AM Train 865 to New Bedford, 8:00 AM Train 867 to Fall River, 8:57 AM Train 869 to New Bedford etc.
(using current Stoughton Line schedules as an example but they are likely to be changed drastically)
Its similar to how the Newburyport/Rockport Line is run. It might be possible to double the frequency so each respective line after Myricks Junction could have more frequent service, but who knows if that would ever happen

[quote="Red Wing" post_id=1591585 time=1644587099 user_id=4645]
[quote=MickD post_id=1591484 time=1644455806 user_id=53]
I live on The Cape,and unless you could get
ALL the towns in on an upgrade to 79MPH from HTC
the investment's not worth it..P&B & Peter Pan,will
be too tough to compete with year round without that,and,I just don't believe
the daily commuter base is here..From my POV ,CR to Hyannis doesn't make sense..
CR to BB has for too long a time..C.2021 ,a town like Wareham has
had the demographic to support it for quite a while,and considering
the village itself, and it's immediate surroundings BB has that same
potential...
[/quote]
Who says it has to be a Commuter Rail? Why can't it be considered regional rail I feel it meets more the definition of the Downeaster or say the East West proposal. With a different mindset it sure makes sense. My only wish that will never happen is a shuttle service to Woods Hole from Buzzards Bay but we all know that will never happen.
[/quote]

The demographic the Downeaster serves is considerably different than The Cape,which in reality would probably barely be enough to support 2 trains in each direction a day from October -Mid June, and that's only with an upgrade to 59mph at the very least...but there's no reason why daily service to Buzzards Bay can't become a reality much sooner than later,,Plus Bourne has been paying into the MBTA pool for a while now with nothing more to show for it other seasonal weekend service..and Sandwich and Barnstable ,which the tracks to Hyannis run through,would have to be receptive to paying into that same MBTA pool..Good luck with that,especially Sandwich...

New article about South Coast Rail, basically bashing Phase I

https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/03/30/mb ... coast-rail

As early as next year, the MBTA plans to finish a long-awaited restoration of train service to the cities of New Bedford, Taunton and Fall River. But as South Coast Rail gets ready to open at the end of 2023, some hard truths about what train service will look like are becoming clearer.

Google maps has updated their satellite imagery, more progress on SCR can now be seen on there, examples of this are,
Middleborough station platform foundations
Middleborough Secondary track upgrades (new ties and rail, passing sidings etc.)
Cotley Junction wye construction
East Taunton site preparation (track and metal beams also visible on future parking lot footprint)

[Fall River Secondary]
Freetown station platform foundations
Fall River station platform foundations

[New Bedford Main]
Church Street station platform construction and site preparation (marked as Kings Highway)

An article on RT&S about South Coast Rail, detailing why Phase I will not be good due to scheduling and travel times,

However, the new line might not be the best version of itself. State transportation planners moved the project to a slower and cheaper route due to the Hockmock swamp, the largest wetland in Massachusetts. An environmental group threatened to sue if the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) attempted to build over the wetlands. The trip from New Bedford to Boston will be 20 minutes longer due to the switch. Trains also will now have to manipulate through the tightest choke point in MBTA’s commuter rail system, which is a single track starting in Braintree.

They also include that the MBTA did not include Phase II in the latest CIP...

A second phase of the project is supposedly in the works, but MBTA did not include it in the agency’s five-year capital plan.

Five years from now is 2027, if the MBTA has no plans to invest into Phase II by then, how could they expect to complete it by 2030? Maybe they are changing some of the design plans?
Thoughts on this?

What’s the point of phase 1 if you can’t double track the old colony mainline completely? It has trouble handling the loads as it is minus the fact that a delay on a single track holds up everything. Biggest mistake they made was keeping that single track.

It's not like they really could have done anything about it, the Middleborough Main in Quincy runs next to two of the city's main arterial roads for a fairly large portion of the lines segment in Quincy, Newport Avenue and Thomas E. Burgin Parkway, the latter of which is one of Quincy's main highway exits. As you can probably already guess, cutting one lane from any of these roads would cause massive congestion to the city. This is just one of the reasons that Phase I should never have existed and the "Full Build" should have began construction back in 2019, but the environmentalists and the NIMBYs got in the way with their objections and caused this mess.