Siemens to manufacture 83 Airo Intercity Trainsets for Amtrak: Design, Delivery, Acceptance

In the public report from Amtrak 2024. (Link)

On page 50 for the Airo Empire trains a possible third rail ability is possible.

Still i think that Amtrak should kill the battery option an electrify the empire connection and order 17 B1 Airo variant.

Is the Empire Connection the only place they'd be needed? I could see battery being just as useful for the places that can't be easily electrified, like shops & terminals.

SRich wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 2:18 pm In the public report from Amtrak 2024. (Link)

On page 50 for the Airo Empire trains a possible third rail ability is possible.

Still i think that Amtrak should kill the battery option an electrify the empire connection and order 17 B1 Airo variant.

Where will the funds to build catenary or third rail come from?

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:00 pm Is the Empire Connection the only place they'd be needed? I could see battery being just as useful for the places that can't be easily electrified, like shops & terminals.

There are only enough of the C Airo trains for services using the Empire Connection. Other Amtrak documents have indicated the battery should be always avalable to aid in acceleration out of stations and up inclines.

I think the batteries are a statement of intent, and could be used elsewhere, but that Amtrak has given themselves a fall back plan should that be needed in the NYC area.

SRich wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 2:18 pm In the public report from Amtrak 2024. (Link)

On page 50 for the Airo Empire trains a possible third rail ability is possible.

Still i think that Amtrak should kill the battery option an electrify the empire connection and order 17 B1 Airo variant.

Have to agree with you. The diesel battery option means operating diesel until battery is charged before entering the west side access tunnel into NYP. Then battery until exiting NYP then back to diesel going to either SSY or back to Albany. In a pinch maybe thru North River tunnel bores to NJ then back to diesel. Also, probably could do same at NYG until leaving NYG as long as escape window is installed in case of an emergency. Battery 3rd rail not much better as both require both under and over running shoes installed,

Now using Airos works better as battery can be charged whenever it is under CAT. Airos will have a battery as well so it could even operate into NYG as long as the escape window is installed. Airos could provide a single train Albany - NYP- Wash as well and not need diesel unless a CAT failure. Also, the Airos could operate t New Haven or even to LIRR once in the open. The downside is that Airos probably will cost somewhat more adding in the CAT equipment, transformer, other electrical. and switching gear. Maybe $ 1 - 1.5 M more. Flexibility will be much improved.

AS far as getting CAT. Not needed until funds acquired. The west side line IMO will never get third rail but can get CAT. 3rd rail would require maybe 5 substations whereas overhead CAT just 2 one at connection tunnel exit and one at Spuyten. CAT past Spuyten several hundred feet will be needed to operate M-8 type equipment to NYP from MNRR Hudson line which may then proceed on to New Rochell over Hell Gate bridge, As well if Hell Gate closed for any reason the Airos can detour over MNRR from Rochelle to Spuyten keeping some Amtrak regional service in operation.

One item that needs clarification. Is NY state providing any money for these Amtrak diesel battery locos? If the state is providing some funding what are the various restrictions placed on Amtrak's use and modifications of the Amtrak order? Are the locos going to be identical to NY's order? If Amtrak changed its order to Airos then maybe NY state' price might be higher?? All CAT electrical equipment is a factor, and PTC may raise its ugly head?

On track: https://www.theurbanist.org/2024/12/08/ ... s-in-2026/

Amtrak Cascades On Track to Deliver New Airo Trainsets in 2026


The Pacific Northwest is set to be the first home for one of Amtrak’s next-generation trains starting in 2026, Amtrak CEO Stephen Gardner confirmed at the agency’s annual board meeting in Seattle last week. First reported in Trains Magazine, Gardner told board members that the first set of what will eventually be 83 initial trainsets rolling out nationwide are set to be deployed to the Amtrak Cascades route between Eugene, Oregon and Vancouver, B.C. Their manufacture schedule remains on track.
...

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 6:31 pm

SRich wrote: ↑Mon Dec 09, 2024 2:18 pm In the public report from Amtrak 2024. (Link)

On page 50 for the Airo Empire trains a possible third rail ability is possible.

Still i think that Amtrak should kill the battery option an electrify the empire connection and order 17 B1 Airo variant.

Where will the funds to build catenary or third rail come from?

Normally I agree with you on stuff like this, but it is nuts that there is a few miles gap of third rail on the Empire line that prevents Amtrak from running all electric up the Hudson line. We hear all this bellyaching about electrification of the mountains and mainlines out west and somehow we can't figure out how to electrify a few miles in New York to complete an already-electrified system.

This would've been a great Amtrak Joe project. Or Obama HSR project.

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 9:40 am Normally I agree with you on stuff like this, but it is nuts that there is a few miles gap of third rail on the Empire line that prevents Amtrak from running all electric up the Hudson line. We hear all this bellyaching about electrification of the mountains and mainlines out west and somehow we can't figure out how to electrify a few miles in New York to complete an already-electrified system.

Of course, Mr. Dunville, somebody would complain about the obstruction of their Hudson River view.

When overseas last October, I did give throught of riding Berlin-Prague (never been in CZ), but just didn't have time with only a week to work with. That DB route is along the Elbe from Dresden to almost Prague (perhaps our overseas River Cruise fan, Col. Perkowski, has done it on the water), and which I understand is quite scenic. It's of course electrified, but I somehow doubt if anyone has complained about their view being obstructed (of course I've noted just how many Europeans are even interested in looking out, or care about riding backwards).

You all need to stand by...

Metro North runs third rail with their EMUs as far as Harmon. The dual mode locomotive hauled trains are on diesel as soon as they clear GCT ish. So spending X millions to add third rail to ten miles of the Empire Connection which as we all know is over riding third rail to get to CP12 were Amtrak joins with MNRR under riding third rail for perhaps 22 miles up to Croton, what are the savings??? All I see is issues with two systems that are the same but different. Why do we have to keep trying to reinvent the wheel?? While I will admit the third rail system is not perfect, it is more an issue with the P32s than the third rail itself.

I watched the Amtrak public board meeting last week. One interesting thing I caught - they are apparently now going to build the "hybrid battery" version of the Airo trainset for the Empire Corridor as a single initial testing prototype before diving headfirst and putting it into all the Empire sets. They will now have the option to pivot the Empire Service trainsets to third rail propulsion (along with changing the prototype to third rail) if the battery concept doesn't prove out well in testing or is unreliable. Sounds like they are feeling less certain about this approach as I have never heard of this spoken of before now. The Empire sets are the last in line for manufacturing (Cascades first followed by mainline NEC followed by state services branching out from the NEC) but it sounds like the prototype will be constructed in an earlier phase of manufacturing so they can test out the concept while they are still primarily manufacturing the diesel/catenary hybrids for the other services.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:21 pm I watched the Amtrak public board meeting last week. One interesting thing I caught - they are apparently now going to build the "hybrid battery" version of the Airo trainset for the Empire Corridor as a single initial testing prototype before diving headfirst and putting it into all the Empire sets. They will now have the option to pivot the Empire Service trainsets to third rail propulsion (along with changing the prototype to third rail) if the battery concept doesn't prove out well in testing or is unreliable. Sounds like they are feeling less certain about this approach as I have never heard of this spoken of before now. The Empire sets are the last in line for manufacturing (Cascades first followed by mainline NEC followed by state services branching out from the NEC) but it sounds like the prototype will be constructed in an earlier phase of manufacturing so they can test out the concept while they are still primarily manufacturing the diesel/catenary hybrids for the other services.

Metro North is currently testing a dual mode of the Charger. I think there will be far more information out there on the Siemens product before the trainsets are even built. Ohh and by the way Amtrak will still need dual mode locomotives for Empire Service trains.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 1:54 pm

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:21 pm I watched the Amtrak public board meeting last week. One interesting thing I caught - they are apparently now going to build the "hybrid battery" version of the Airo trainset for the Empire Corridor as a single initial testing prototype before diving headfirst and putting it into all the Empire sets. They will now have the option to pivot the Empire Service trainsets to third rail propulsion (along with changing the prototype to third rail) if the battery concept doesn't prove out well in testing or is unreliable. Sounds like they are feeling less certain about this approach as I have never heard of this spoken of before now. The Empire sets are the last in line for manufacturing (Cascades first followed by mainline NEC followed by state services branching out from the NEC) but it sounds like the prototype will be constructed in an earlier phase of manufacturing so they can test out the concept while they are still primarily manufacturing the diesel/catenary hybrids for the other services.

Metro North is currently testing a dual mode of the Charger. I think there will be far more information out there on the Siemens product before the trainsets are even built. Ohh and by the way Amtrak will still need dual mode locomotives for Empire Service trains.

Is that for the LD trains?

I agree that third rail electrification of the empire connection is ridiculous. My suggestion is to electrify it with CAT. Amtrak then could kill the C Airo variant and order the B1. Giving all the B1's a interoperability and swap out capability with the NEC versions.

No not for LD trains. Amtrak wants to use dual mode diesel-battery hybrid propulsion on the new Airo trainsets for the Empire Service trains with the batteries replacing third rail to get into and out of Penn Station. What's different with these recent reports is that they now seem to be considering pivoting to third rail if the battery thing doesn't pan out. What was being talked about originally is that the business/auxiliary propulsion car immediately behind the locomotive would contain batteries that would send power to the traction motors on the locomotive.

The locomotive itself would be a hybrid variant of the ALC-42 Charger (it would be designated an ALC-42E) locomotives used in long distance service with the difference being that it could also accept electrical power from an auxiliary power system located in the car immediately behind the engine. On the NEC version this business/APV will contain transformers and a pantograph to draw power from the overhead catenary. In the NEC version there are also powered trucks on the APV car to provide the extra acceleration needed on the NEC in addition to sending power to the locomotive traction motors.

Metro North's order with Siemens for dual mode third rail powered Chargers that Railjunkie mentioned does have options for the Amtrak New York services that NYSDOT could have used if they had decided to go with state owned equipment but ultimately NYSDOT opted to stay with Amtrak owned equipment. I suppose these could be the path if Amtrak dumps the battery idea. Order a few of these and instead build the actual trainsets for the Empire Service the same as the Cascades version (push pull but with no propulsion.) One big difference with the Metro North Chargers is that they will be designed to operate in third rail mode all the way to Southeast or Croton-Harmon on the Harlem and Hudson lines instead of switching to diesel after exiting the tunnels from GCT.

Mr Sigma,

I know that C model Airo is a Battery-Diesel/Electric variant style Airo. Do you know the only difference between an ALC-42 and ALC-42E? There are only 2 major differences, first that de locomotive has 2 high voltage DC cables connected to the next car (Battery or APV) and that the alternator is also used to start the diesel engine. That is also a reason that i find it strange that Siemens is building 2 ALC-42E locomotives for WSDOT/Amtrak instead of the regular SC-44 or Amtrak regular ALC-42. All the Cascades are D model Airo trains.

There are multiple LD's starting and ending in NY Penn, those arent ány airo trainsets. By law these trains also must switch to electric for Penn, so a ALC-42DM is then the logical answer.

Metro North's order with Siemens for dual mode third rail powered Chargers that Railjunkie mentioned does have options for dual mode Chargers for the Amtrak New York services that NYSDOT could have used if they had decided to go with state owned equipment but ultimately NYSDOT opted to stay with Amtrak owned equipment.

I don't know if NY State doesn't own (completely/partly) the future C-style Airo trains. WSDOT will own their own chargers and some of the new D-style Airo trainsets, some of then are owned by Amtrak.

I suppose these could be the path if Amtrak dumps the battery idea.

I don't think so, i think that Amtrak will add third rail shoes to ALC-42E and first car behind (DC cable link) it on its C-Style airo trainsets.

Order a few of these and instead build the actual trainsets for the Empire Service the same as the Cascades version (push pull but with no propulsion.) One big difference with the Metro North Chargers is that they will be designed to operate in third rail mode all the way to Southeast or Croton-Harmon on the Harlem and Hudson lines instead of switching to diesel after exiting the tunnels from GCT.

Personnally i prefer a Electric-Diesel/Electric variant instead Battery-Diesel/Electric. If Amtrak extend the catenary 1 or 2 miles on the emipre connection, the train can switch from Electric to Diesel and back under power and running. No third rail gaps and no loss of power in the train.

SRich wrote

"There are multiple LD's starting and ending in NY Penn, those arent ány airo trainsets. By law these trains also must switch to electric for Penn, so a ALC-42DM is then the logical answer".

There is no law about running a diesel into Penn. Plenty of rules about it but no laws. At one time if you were a diesel powered train, because stuff happens you had to stop and get towed in by an electric. Same idea leaving Penn. Have not done that in years and I have has plenty of opportunities including right now with the push pull service going on.