• Siemens AP 220 Production, Delivery and Acceptance: Brightline West Trainsets

  • This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
    Websites: Current Brightline
    Virgin USA
    Virgin UK
This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
Websites: Current Brightline
Virgin USA
Virgin UK

Moderator: CRail

  by Tadman
 
The Southern Tier is "a great fit" for a new Siemens Mobility train manufacturing facility that could create several hundred jobs, said Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer.
GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD LUCK with that. There's a reason business has been moving out of such locations. Also why would they build a factory in New York to build trains for California when... wait for it... they have a factory in California.
  by RandallW
 
If, as the article suggests, Siemens is going to build a third factory to enable AP220 production to not interfere with Airo production, having a factory in a state not considering or investing in high speed rail is brilliant, because now there are 4 senators backing that investment (2 in the state getting the line and 2 in the state building the trains) if you need the votes, since we know that private funds won't invest in public infrastructure without some degree of supporting government investment.
  by eolesen
 
Sorry, but I just don't see Siemens building a new plant or expanding an existing plant in a high-tax, high-regulation closed-shop state.

Wabtec chose to keep Fort Worth, TX and closed Erie, PA...

EMD closed LaGrange, IL and London, ON and built new in Muncie, IN.

Boeing and Airbus built their newest plants in Alabama and South Carolina.

Do I need to go on? This isn't about politics, it's about economics.
  by Jeff Smith
 
If they're going to work on the 4 v. 2 Senator argument, it could still be any state. However, Schumer is a big mucky-muck. He'll still be a big mucky-muck post-election; how big remains to be seen.

Amtrak's Texas Central project is supposed to use Shinkasen sets. Why not the AP220? Siemens may want to consider that.
  by scratchyX1
 
Jeff Smith wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:58 am If they're going to work on the 4 v. 2 Senator argument, it could still be any state. However, Schumer is a big mucky-muck. He'll still be a big mucky-muck post-election; how big remains to be seen.

Amtrak's Texas Central project is supposed to use Shinkasen sets. Why not the AP220? Siemens may want to consider that.
I thought JPN was one of the people involved? My understanding is that a spanish company is going to build the route to be essentially a clone of one of the Grand Trunk Line routes, with their loading gauge, etc.
  by RandallW
 
eolesen wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:09 pm Sorry, but I just don't see Siemens building a new plant or expanding an existing plant in a high-tax, high-regulation closed-shop state.

Wabtec chose to keep Fort Worth, TX and closed Erie, PA...

EMD closed LaGrange, IL and London, ON and built new in Muncie, IN.

Boeing and Airbus built their newest plants in Alabama and South Carolina.

Do I need to go on? This isn't about politics, it's about economics.
Airbus built a plant in the US to compete on USAF contracts, EMD built in Muncie so they could bid on Made in America contracts (none of which they won, BTW). If building or moving a factory to get government contracts isn't about politics, I don't what is.

I can't find any announcement that Wabtec is closing their Erie PA plant.
  by eolesen
 
You're correct -- Wabtec kept Erie open and closed down Wilmerding (near Pittsburgh). Right state, wrong facility.

They did threaten to close Erie during the strike last year, though. Threats to close down a facility always seem to come back.

As for Airbus...... They made the decision to go forward with Mobile plant a full year --after-- they lost the tanker competition to Boeing.

They also moved some A220 production away from Quebec to Alabama, a move that had no "government contract" potential whatsoever.

Perhaps you can explain how that's "trying to get government contracts" and not just an economic driven decision?

It's a fairly simple fact that labor and social costs are going to be lower in Alabama vs. Quebec or France.
  by RandallW
 
Large government contracts are always political. If they weren't those firms wouldn't be hiring lobbyists and splashing adds for their bids on these programs all over the Washington Metro. Conversely if these decisions are merely "economic" there is no meaningful distinction between politics and economics (and there is a massive body of work by economic theorists that there isn't a strong distinction between the two). After all, Airbus's decision to maintain a US plant is as much about avoiding tariffs (set as a political act) as it is any other rational.

Boeing got the US government to slap a 219% tariff on A220 aircraft, so of course building anywhere in the US when selling to a US company would be cheaper than in Canada. Claiming that Bombardier's partnering with Airbus to build those in the USA at an existing facility in reaction to that tariff is "merely economic" is ignoring the fact that tariffs are inherently political. Airbus still builds A220s in Canada as that plane's primary manufacturing location, and just uses the Mobile plant to serve US orders.

Fort Worth and Erie build locomotives, Wabtec's plant in Pittsburgh didn't.
  by scratchyX1
 
eolesen wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 11:16 pm You're correct -- Wabtec kept Erie open and closed down Wilmerding (near Pittsburgh). Right state, wrong facility.

They did threaten to close Erie during the strike last year, though. Threats to close down a facility always seem to come back.

As for Airbus...... They made the decision to go forward with Mobile plant a full year --after-- they lost the tanker competition to Boeing.

They also moved some A220 production away from Quebec to Alabama, a move that had no "government contract" potential whatsoever.

Perhaps you can explain how that's "trying to get government contracts" and not just an economic driven decision?

It's a fairly simple fact that labor and social costs are going to be lower in Alabama vs. Quebec or France.
IIRC, The Pittsburgh facility was 100+ years old (former Westinghouse airbrake factory, and "considered inadequate for modern production processes".
  by Tadman
 
RandallW wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:41 pm

Airbus built a plant in the US to compete on USAF contracts, EMD built in Muncie so they could bid on Made in America contracts (none of which they won, BTW). If building or moving a factory to get government contracts isn't about politics, I don't what is.

I can't find any announcement that Wabtec is closing their Erie PA plant.
This is not a serious analysis. There isn't enough government work in Indiana or Texas for EMD or Wabtec to justify the move. Those were very dollar-driven decisions, as was Airbus in Mobile. They are quite happy building Delta planes every week in Mobile. Not USAF.

Same with Mercedes, BMW, US Steel, Nucor, Hyundai, STeel Dynamics, et al... they are opening up billions of dollars in factories in sunbelt and RTW states for dollars and sense reasons. I was astounded when I heard Rivian was opening up at Bloomington IL in the ex-Chrysler-Mitsubishi plant and it could be a big mistake still.
  by RandallW
 
EMD had the option of staying in Canada or moving to the US or Mexico. If their move from Canada (to break a union shop) was driven purely by economics they would have built in Mexico, not Indiana unless they needed to be the US to build the F125 because that would only by bought under Made In America contracts.

Airbus didn't have a Delta order in Mobile until Boeing tried to use politics to kill a Delta order to Bombardier -- yes, they are happy building for Delta in Mobile, but they didn't consider that until after the 219% tariff was introduced on the model of plane.

I'm not arguing that building your first plant in the US picking Texas vs Indiana is a bad thing, but I am arguing that making a decision to build in the US when previously you didn't is always a political decision as much as an economic one.

Basically the decision to locate manufacturing made by reacting to differing laws is making political decisions.
  by eolesen
 
Theres a lot more to the CS100/A220 story, Randall. Bombardier was heading for liquidation and sold the Delta order at under $20m per copy, which was less than their $33m per copy production cost in Quebec. The trigger for tarriffs was Quebec subsidized production with at least $1.4B in direct investments during the CS program's startup. The tarriffs were later abandoned after Airbus stepped in and future investments from Quebec were shut off.

Production in Mobile now helps make up that $13m per copy deficit. I suspect the only reason the Mirabel plant remains open is Quebec holding 25% ownership in the A220 program. If Airbus were to buy them out, that plant would be gone in short order. When orders dry up, that might still happen.

This is no different from what CRRC was proposing to do with railcar production - heavy subsidies from a foreign government to win orders and undercut competition.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk