Should CTA take posession of METRA South chicago branch ?

Im just wondering how the fellow CTA railfans here think......

This was brought up in another forum a while back as it related to the Olympics coming to Chicago that the need for round the clock frequent trips would be needed along this area and possibly one from the downtown core to the far south side... however this was the most realistic Idea I saw put before the drawing board.... it entails

.Extending the green line East 63rd branch down to the IC.
.Build an up and over at the IC.
.Bring the New CTA line parallel to the IC, running south along the IC ROW
.Build a new station at 67 th st.
.Get rid of the under pass for Metra electric at 71 st.
.Connect the new CTA ROW with the existing Metra ROW at 71s t st.
.CTA takes possession of the South Chicago Metra Branch as CTA service.
.Green line (E 63rd) trains would go from 4 to 6 car service.

So what does the rest of the forum think about this idea, ya I know some upgrades are going to be needed along the south Chicago branch for CTA service but nothing more than a few improvements and some station modifications. I wonder if they would keep the over head centenary or go install 3rd rail power. Id love to see CENT back on top of CTA trains.

The purposed would look something like this...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8453967@N0 ... 7/sizes/o/

An interesting concept, but as I checked out the proposed IC segment on Google Earth, I don't think there's enough room to run the service at grade between 63rd & 71st, although elevation could be an option, if done right. To make the transition to the So Chgo branch as seamless as possible, the new alignment would preferably be along the east side of the IC ROW, running either parallel to (or over) the freight mains. If this is going to be a CTA operation, then I suggest the catenary be removed on the So Chgo branch, and 3rd rail installed, to ensure operational compatibility and equipment flexibility. The stations could pretty much remain as is, maybe shorten the platforms a little at some stations with only one entrance/exit, and install CTA turnstiles & TVM's, no big deal. 6-car trains on 10 minute (rush) or 20-30 minute (off-peak) headways sounds about right, though I'm not sure if running times to/from the loop will be any faster than it is now.

One of the ironies in this plan includes the restoration of elevated service along east 63rd St. between Cottage Grove and the IC. The structure was demolished during the Green line rehab about 14 years ago, now this would have to be rebuilt. That ain't gonna be cheap...

Hello Doepack I thought of the same thing as well quite doable if the CTA was kept above ground and followed the IC ROW beside the freight line ( similar to the Green line oak park) It wouldn't need to drop to ground level until it reached the current Metra 71 st. down and under move . I also believe the east side of the IC is where it would go, the only thing I cant see space for is a new station at 67th st. Seeing as how the CTA is looking to take possession of some new rolling stock from Bombardier the 2200's could be assigned to this route at the middle of a 6 car train.

Metra ED would be freed up a line and the Rolling stock could be used for this hopeful purposed extension to Kankakee. Also this gets Metra out off there only City service ending line ( no other Metra line ends inside Chicago City limits). The more I thought of it the more it made perfect seance.

After reading through your comments, ideas, and suggestions on this discussion, I think both of you are making a lot of sense. So much sense that I suspect both METRA and the CTA will never agree to do this, unfortunately.

One problem with the South side Green line is the high crime south of 35th street. Unfortunately, the E63rd route has a very poor reputation. IC riders have a better choice on the IC Electric trains. The Museum of Science & Industry uses mostly express bus on Lake Shore Drive from downtown. The gap from here to the U of C remains.

Another problem is the route is paired with the west side Lake Street line. In the "old days", trains could continue North to Howard. The plan puts more riders on the Wabash/Lake sides of the Loop. Transfers will be required for other trains, not easy to do unless State/Lake was rebuilt.

This may be one time to build a new station for the IC Electric in the area.

GWoodle wrote:One problem with the South side Green line is the high crime south of 35th street. Unfortunately, the E63rd route has a very poor reputation. IC riders have a better choice on the IC Electric trains. The Museum of Science & Industry uses mostly express bus on Lake Shore Drive from downtown. The gap from here to the U of C remains.

Another problem is the route is paired with the west side Lake Street line. In the "old days", trains could continue North to Howard. The plan puts more riders on the Wabash/Lake sides of the Loop. Transfers will be required for other trains, not easy to do unless State/Lake was rebuilt.

This may be one time to build a new station for the IC Electric in the area.

i'm thinking that certain trains could terminate in the Loop, rather than just direct all traffic west to Harlem from downtown. Theoretically, trains could follow the Orange line routing around the Loop (Van Buren/Wells/Lake/Wabash), then head back. That might require a reroute for the Pink line around the Loop (say, via Wells/VB/Wabash/Lake, same as Brown, which is the exact opposite of its current route) to balance the traffic levels out, or perhaps the east 63rd/So Chgo branch could become an extension of the Pink line...

Is the Green line currently running at capacity at peak times? What about the Red line subway?

I'm thinking of the Ashland Branch being the only one retaining the current routing (with more than half the current Green line traffic), and the other being routed through the subway to Ravenswood (with about the current Brown line traffic).

I think the south branch needs to be extended to the horseshoe casino and whiting, but that would have to be on indiana's or the casino's dime.. the biggest roadblock to this is obviously the shipping channel..

That casino already has an Amtrak station next door, AND a fleet of their own buses giving any willing gambler a free ride there should they wish to go. Not much need for Metra service.

Yeah but that Amtrak station is next to useless. Most likley solution is a diesel powered gallery car train from somewhere downtown financed by the casinos. It would make sense, the ACES service is operated over a 200 mile route for New Yorkers, I don't see why a 20 mile trip wouldn't work for Chicagoans.

Tadman wrote:Yeah but that Amtrak station is next to useless. Most likley solution is a diesel powered gallery car train from somewhere downtown financed by the casinos. It would make sense, the ACES service is operated over a 200 mile route for New Yorkers, I don't see why a 20 mile trip wouldn't work for Chicagoans.

I agree Tadman another option is needed and soon will be even for Amtrak possibly as Hammond transit is abandoning the bus route that goes to the Amtrak station in hammond/whitting . I'm pretty sure CTA and metra have no plans to go pass the state line and deal with all of Indiana's issues.

Passenger wrote:Is the Green line currently running at capacity at peak times? What about the Red line subway?
.

The green line is no where near capacity the red line however is. Extension of the green line would give CTA a better revenue structure as now a larger figure of red line riders will be able to travel the green line and ease congestion on the red line trains instead to access the south side and east side, as well as be able to have a hammond transit bus connect with it as its closer to the state line. Less bus travel time will be needed helping to reduce carbon emissions due to people not having to catch a CTA bus on the southside and heading all the way to a red line station.

Doepack I agree thats a suitable idea with a 1 full trip and 1 short turn in the loop back down the green line for the southside if the metra branch becomes part of CTA.

GWoodle wrote:One problem with the South side Green line is the high crime south of 35th street. Unfortunately, the E63rd route has a very poor reputation. IC riders have a better choice on the IC Electric trains. The Museum of Science & Industry uses mostly express bus on Lake Shore Drive from downtown. The gap from here to the U of C remains.
Another problem is the route is paired with the west side Lake Street line. In the "old days", trains could continue North to Howard. The plan puts more riders on the Wabash/Lake sides of the Loop. Transfers will be required for other trains, not easy to do unless State/Lake was rebuilt.
This may be one time to build a new station for the IC Electric in the area.

1) Yes east 63rd has a high crime rate if you want to take criminal activity demographics in Chicago, but the south chicago branch of the Metra electric is surrounded with a crime rate just as high if not higher, that would be the last thing to consider, it might be a reason CTA wouldn't want to buy the line.
2)Most commuters riding the south Chicago branch are not detraining at the Museum of SC & IN. 95% + are going straight downtown. the Museum would still need there own bus route to and from the station there would be no need for change there.
3) Most people riding the IC south Chicago branch complain because now they have to pay a second fare to CTA to jump on a bus if needs be after exiting a south Chicago Metra branch station. If customers had the option of CTA trains the whole way and not pay metra a extra fare just to get downtown maybe 10-15 mins. faster south side riders would take it in a heart beat. especially with more frequent trips than metra currently offers. those who want metra service could easily find there way to a station on the main line, not to mention a CTA station would need to be built at 67th street ( there's your new station as a new CTA line would parallel the current Metra IC) for those wishing to catch a metra IC train, the CTA and Metra stations would parallel each other at 67th.
4) Transfers are required if you want to head north coming from the orange line or blue line so what would be so different about the green line passengers needing the same transfer. if your on the IC coming from the south Chicago branch your going to have to detrain downtown and head for a CTA train station or a regular metra train to head north.
5) State/Lake has a walk over from one platform to the other and there is a quadrant turn at lake and wells for a short turn train if needed using the brown line loop route, or it could use the orange loop route like stated above.

To me this is a win win.. but like fauxcelt said... "makes a lot of sense. So much sense that I suspect both METRA and the CTA will never agree to do this, unfortunately." ..............my sentiments exactly Buddah

You folks are all "Whistling Dixie " or have you forgotten that the CTA allowed the city to tear down the "L" on east 63rd ST. If you think the city is going to rebuild what it tore down....... you're smokin' sumthin'. Also, maybe some of you don't know, in Chicago it is the city that builds new transit lines, not the CTA. The city built the State ST subway, the Dearborn Milwaukee subway, the Congress, Dan Ryan and Kennedy median lines, and the Midway-Orange line. The CTA does things like rehabs to its present structure...like the Brown Line Capacity project.

And anyway, the proposed extension of the Green line , (not in our lifetime) is to go south along King Dr and then southeast along South Chicago AV.

And anyway twice, it is illegal to BUILD a third rail powered surface level railroad within the city limits.

David Harrison

Chicagopcclcars wrote:
1. have you forgotten that the CTA allowed the city to tear down the "L" on east 63rd ST.
2.If you think the city is going to rebuild what it tore down....... you're smokin' sumthin'.
3.in Chicago it is the city that builds new transit lines, not the CTA.
4.The CTA does things like rehabs to its present structure..
5. the proposed extension of the Green line , (not in our lifetime) is to go south along King Dr and then southeast along South Chicago AV.
6. And anyway twice, it is illegal to BUILD a third rail powered surface level railroad within the city limits.

Hello dave a few points I must address in your comment.....

1) Yes a part ( a very SHORT part, 1400 feet roughly ) of it was torn down because no use was need for it to be extended that far down 63rd st at the time. the CTA did not completely get rid of east 63rd. St routing because it does serve a purpose and community making it a valuable asset just one that is under utilized because of its current limitations.

2)The City of Chicago is willing to build anything even this previously removed 1400 feet of track and structure, if it can benefit the City and the funding is there. Stimulus money would be accepted with open arms.

3) Yes because the city owns the CTA, and whats every Cities motto "can we do it for less !" so to take possession of the Metra's south chicago branch from the RTA for peanuts ( RTA may even pay them for taking it! ) and convert it to CTA use would be more than Ideal and cost far less than the alternative.

4) Upgrades and improvements as well not just rehabs. So converting the branch to CTA use would be in the realm of CTA'S abilities. CTA removed the centenary wire from the Skokie swift line and installed 3rd rail just a few yrs ago. CTA would require a fencing system down the line following the Metra ROW.

5) Exactly why the alternate you speak of is not even mentioned for the cost out weigh any benefit the CITY and CTA are expecting. They would need to build from scratch 8.6 km of ROW and the cost of each station in the 10s of millions a piece for high platform trains. Plus no current space is available @ south Chicago ave and between Commercial & 95th st, for a bus depot, park and ride lot, or passenger pick up waiting area. both south side green line routes suffer financially from not being able to accommodate these features. The City would need to take eminent domain and buy out land, houses,& property in the area. Both purposed routes would end just meters from each other. Why would Metra even bother to provide service on the South chicago line if CTA was in direct parallel with them. Metra would definitely abandon the route due to the loss of ridership to the CTA's new ROW. Taking Metras ROW CTA only need 2.5km of ROW which 1km was already there ( down 63rd st.) and the other 1.5 km will follow the IC, resulting in no need for eminent Domain. The Metra south Chicago branch already has a parking lot at 93rd and more than enough room beside the station for a bus depot, passenger pick up can be done like it currently is from the street on 93rd. St. savings on cost to the CITY and CTA for those alone are overwhelming.

6) Where did you hear..."is illegal to BUILD a third rail powered surface level railroad within the city limits" ? I believe you have been misinformed,If Im correct that was Skokie and the reason the swift had centenary, and that has recently been reversed as the swift is now 3rd rail powered. If so then the elevated blue line branch (pink line now) and brown lines would not be here as there both 3rd rail powered lines in the city of Chicago limits. The CTA and the CITY would be doing an extension of a line not a complete new line, Im sure if true the City would reverse that or find a way around it easily. I believe what your referring to is for railroads not operated by the City or used for city direct passenger services... IE: Norfolk Southern, Amtrak, NICTD ,CN, CP etc.... CTA would definitely be exempt.

Heres a map with both purposed green line exensions...
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v ... &encType=1

buddah wrote:

Chicagopcclcars wrote:
1. have you forgotten that the CTA allowed the city to tear down the "L" on east 63rd ST.
2.If you think the city is going to rebuild what it tore down....... you're smokin' sumthin'.
3.in Chicago it is the city that builds new transit lines, not the CTA.
4.The CTA does things like rehabs to its present structure..
5. the proposed extension of the Green line , (not in our lifetime) is to go south along King Dr and then southeast along South Chicago AV.
6. And anyway twice, it is illegal to BUILD a third rail powered surface level railroad within the city limits.

Hello dave a few points I must address in your comment.....

1) Yes a part ( a very SHORT part, 1400 feet roughly ) of it was torn down because no use was need for it to be extended that far down 63rd st at the time. the CTA did not completely get rid of east 63rd. St routing because it does serve a purpose and community making it a valuable asset just one that is under utilized because of its current limitations.

Still wanna know what you're smokin'. You know nothing of the tear down, the why, the people behind the tear down. You're living in a dream world.

2)The City of Chicago is willing to build anything even this previously removed 1400 feet of track and structure, if it can benefit the City and the funding is there. Stimulus money would be accepted with open arms.

You're confusing "build" with "lease back, sell the rights to, financial dealing with political favorites, insiders, and relatives to the mayor. '"

3) Yes because the city owns the CTA, and whats every Cities motto "can we do it for less !" so to take possession of the Metra's south chicago branch from the RTA for peanuts ( RTA may even pay them for taking it! ) and convert it to CTA use would be more than Ideal and cost far less than the alternative.

No factual information here.

4) Upgrades and improvements as well not just rehabs. So converting the branch to CTA use would be in the realm of CTA'S abilities. CTA removed the centenary wire from the Skokie swift line and installed 3rd rail just a few yrs ago. CTA would require a fencing system down the line following the Metra ROW.

CTA upgrades what they own, not another line owned by Metra. Overhead wire is called catenary.

5) Exactly why the alternate you speak of is not even mentioned for the cost out weigh any benefit the CITY and CTA are expecting. They would need to build from scratch 8.6 km of ROW and the cost of each station in the 10s of millions a piece for high platform trains. Plus no current space is available @ south Chicago ave and between Commercial & 95th st, for a bus depot, park and ride lot, or passenger pick up waiting area. both south side green line routes suffer financially from not being able to accommodate these features. The City would need to take eminent domain and buy out land, houses,& property in the area. Both purposed routes would end just meters from each other. Why would Metra even bother to provide service on the South chicago line if CTA was in direct parallel with them. Metra would definitely abandon the route due to the loss of ridership to the CTA's new ROW. Taking Metras ROW CTA only need 2.5km of ROW which 1km was already there ( down 63rd st.) and the other 1.5 km will follow the IC, resulting in no need for eminent Domain. The Metra south Chicago branch already has a parking lot at 93rd and more than enough room beside the station for a bus depot, passenger pick up can be done like it currently is from the street on 93rd. St. savings on cost to the CITY and CTA for those alone are overwhelming.

You're just restating the proposed idea.

6) Where did you hear..."is illegal to BUILD a third rail powered surface level railroad within the city limits" ? I believe you have been misinformed,If Im correct that was Skokie and the reason the swift had centenary, and that has recently been reversed as the swift is now 3rd rail powered. If so then the elevated blue line branch (pink line now) and brown lines would not be here as there both 3rd rail powered lines in the city of Chicago limits. The CTA and the CITY would be doing an extension of a line not a complete new line, Im sure if true the City would reverse that or find a way around it easily. I believe what your referring to is for railroads not operated by the City or used for city direct passenger services... IE: Norfolk Southern, Amtrak, NICTD ,CN, CP etc.... CTA would definitely be exempt.

Did you flunk geography? Skokie is not in Chicago. Any other third rail lines like the Pink were constructed before the area was annexed into the city. The Brown line was in the city but the land was undeveloped when the third rail was put in. Be careful about your statements

Heres a map with both purposed green line exensions...
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?v ... &encType=1

To second above comments, you won't see CTA come back along 63rd street. The locals and the local church don't like it. Everybody I've heard thinks they're nuts because public transit is good in places experiencing economic difficulties, like E 63rd has been for quite a few years. You don't see cops in bullet-proof vests for fashion reasons.

And the crime rate along the lower part of the green line is way worse than the Metra south Chicago branch. I've spent time in each area for work, and I ride Metra South Chicago. I won't ride a train through Englewood or Jackson Park. I try not to drive through there either.