• SEPTA Rebuilding for the Future Updates

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by PHLSpecial
 
I hope this fits in here does anyone know what they are going to do with the reimagine regional rail?
Also is it possible that the trolley modernization construction would start this decade?

https://planning.septa.org/

Figured we would want one thread for the future of Septa
  by mcgrath618
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:45 am I hope this fits in here does anyone know what they are going to do with the reimagine regional rail?
Also is it possible that the trolley modernization construction would start this decade?

https://planning.septa.org/

Figured we would want one thread for the future of Septa
You'll like that one if you're a fan of the Rs...
  by PHLSpecial
 
mcgrath618 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:53 pmYou'll like that one if you're a fan of the Rs...
It has grown on me. I'm very excited to see what the branding will be like! I'm also excited to see Septas track improvements and hopefully more frequency.
  by Silverliner5
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:45 am I hope this fits in here does anyone know what they are going to do with the reimagine regional rail?
Also is it possible that the trolley modernization construction would start this decade?

https://planning.septa.org/

Figured we would want one thread for the future of Septa
The trolley project should start this decade but i wish they got that land at 69th and elmwood but now it's best to Aquire land near the eastwick train station than take up part of Penrose plaza
  by Pensyfan19
 
I'm not sure if anyone noticed this, but in page 73 of their regional rail plan, SEPTA is proposing the restoration of all of their diesel services! I would probably assume they'll use ALC42Es with the CRRC bilevels and comet coaches, given that their newest electric engines were made by Siemens.

https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
  by scratchyX1
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:35 am I'm not sure if anyone noticed this, but in page 73 of their regional rail plan, SEPTA is proposing the restoration of all of their diesel services! I would probably assume they'll use ALC42Es with the CRRC bilevels and comet coaches, given that their newest electric engines were made by Siemens.

https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
I saw that , including the newton branch and allentown branches, which they JUST converted into trails.
I mean, there is enough room on the row for trail and rail, with the need to build some bike bridges,
and there is clearly demand.
  by PHLSpecial
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:35 am I'm not sure if anyone noticed this, but in page 73 of their regional rail plan, SEPTA is proposing the restoration of all of their diesel services! I would probably assume they'll use ALC42Es with the CRRC bilevels and comet coaches, given that their newest electric engines were made by Siemens.

https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
It's pretty long shot to bring back some of these services but it can happen! The dual modes will help.

Would be cool to extend Septa down to Perryville but the run into the same problem of no layover track?
Septa to Lancaster would be a big one. I can see Septa to Quakertown coming back first then I too see there is demand for Allentown. Septa is going to need to put in restrooms in for the longer services in the future
  by scratchyX1
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 1:52 pm
Pensyfan19 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:35 am I'm not sure if anyone noticed this, but in page 73 of their regional rail plan, SEPTA is proposing the restoration of all of their diesel services! I would probably assume they'll use ALC42Es with the CRRC bilevels and comet coaches, given that their newest electric engines were made by Siemens.

https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
It's pretty long shot to bring back some of these services but it can happen! The dual modes will help.

Would be cool to extend Septa down to Perryville but the run into the same problem of no layover track?
Septa to Lancaster would be a big one. I can see Septa to Quakertown coming back first then I too see there is demand for Allentown. Septa is going to need to put in restrooms in for the longer services in the future
Yeah, I've thought the same thing.
Bathrooms will be needed.
  by Silverliner5
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:35 am I'm not sure if anyone noticed this, but in page 73 of their regional rail plan, SEPTA is proposing the restoration of all of their diesel services! I would probably assume they'll use ALC42Es with the CRRC bilevels and comet coaches, given that their newest electric engines were made by Siemens.

https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
Is it possible to retrofit the Silverliners with Battery Packs cause it seems cheaper than buying new ALC-42Es
  by MACTRAXX
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:35 am I'm not sure if anyone noticed this, but in page 73 of their regional rail plan, SEPTA is proposing the restoration of all of their diesel services! I would probably assume they'll use ALC42Es with the CRRC bilevels and comet coaches, given that their newest electric engines were made by Siemens.

https://planning.septa.org/wp-content/u ... ressed.pdf
PF - I read the two pages in question and I came away with a different explanation...
The text says that the **POTENTIAL** is there to restore five routes that were eliminated during the first half
of the 1980s - as of this SEPTA RRD report there is NO funding or subsidy available to bring back these services.

Let's go through each line and service in order as listed in the report:

1-Fox Chase to Newtown...This line is the proverbial dead horse at Railroad.net remembering Newtown topics.
The SEPTA Forum Archives has past discussions about the Newtown Line for anyone to read about.
NIMBY opposition - first and foremost from the Borough of Bryn Athyn - will be the prime reason that
the Newtown Line never returns as a commuter rail line and stays a rail trail.

2-Lansdale - Quakertown - Bethlehem - Allentown...This is a line with good restoration potential and the
one I am most familiar with having spent time in Lansdale and Souderton. Back in the 90s SEPTA proposed
to bring back service to Quakertown using dual mode equipment which was a plan that went nowhere.
The line north of Shelly (north of Quakertown) is fully abandoned with tracks removed. This would take
a commitment from both Lehigh and Northampton Counties to restore rail service up to the Lehigh Valley.

3-Elwyn to West Chester - This is the one electrified (former PRR line) route that was cut back to Elwyn.
Chester County instead chose to fund expanded Western Main Line service from Paoli west to Thorndale
instead of keeping the single track route to West Chester. The extension to Wawa is a start - restoring the
rest of the line which is about 10 miles - is going to be costly if the Wawa extension is any indication.

4-Norristown - Pottstown - Reading: Does anyone remember the "Schuykill Valley Metro" boondoggle?
This is a line that traditional passenger rail service would be a good fit - provided that there was money
forthcoming from Berks County (prime example) to fund new service - and that any new rail service on
this route can be worked out with - Norfolk Southern (the line owner) - for any restoration efforts.

5-West Trenton - Bound Brook (NJT Raritan Valley Line to Newark)
I remember the RDC equipped Wall Street and Crusader weekday service between Newark and Philadelphia
(Reading Terminal) during their last years specifically (1979-1981) and that it was a interesting alternative to
the NEC going via West Trenton and Jenkintown. The two busiest stops were Belle Mead and Hopewell, NJ.
Today the line between West Trenton and Bound Brook is CSX single track main freight route between the
Philadelphia area and North Jersey - and the "price" that CSX has mentioned to NJT is that a new second
track be constructed for any passenger service to resume between WTR and Bound Brook.

In closing all of these routes have not been served by passenger trains for 40 years on average.
Will service ever come back on these routes? That is the question...MACTRAXX
Last edited by MACTRAXX on Sat Apr 16, 2022 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
  by JeffK
 
Silverliner5 wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:27 pm Is it possible to retrofit the Silverliners with battery packs cause it seems cheaper than buying new ALC-42Es
How much additional rehab would be needed? It (naïvely) seems you'd new power systems but the rest of the car would still be ~50 years old.
Last edited by JeffK on Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by PHLSpecial
 
MACTRAXX wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:47 am In closing all of these routes have not been served by passenger trains for 40 years on average.
Will service ever come back on these routes? That is the question...MACTRAXX
I believe 2, 3, 4 are all realistic and possible. 5 would be interesting but I wouldn't think Septa would serve that line.

I think slowly Americans in my generation millennials and younger are a lot more open to rail service and public transportation in general. It can happen.

I could see Septa ordering a battery train down the line to operate these services. But we need PennDot to fund more rail projects and stop expanding highways.
  by MACTRAXX
 
PHLSpecial wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:41 am
MACTRAXX wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:47 am In closing all of these routes have not been served by passenger trains for 40 years on average.
Will service ever come back on these routes? That is the question...MACTRAXX
I believe 2, 3, 4 are all realistic and possible. 5 would be interesting but I wouldn't think Septa would serve that line.

I think slowly Americans in my generation millennials and younger are a lot more open to rail service and public transportation in general. It can happen.

I could see Septa ordering a battery train down the line to operate these services. But we need PennDot to fund more rail projects and stop expanding highways.
PHL - This is my reply as follows -

2 - Quakertown south to Lansdale is a distinct restoration possibility with support from Upper Bucks County
municipalities (best examples) that would benefit from new service to Lansdale and Philadelphia.
There would be track (10 mph now) and infrastructure work needed on this 16 mile route for passenger service.
North of Shelly (QKT) the route is very different being fully abandoned - and titled the Upper Bucks Rail
Trail and Saucon Rail Trail (north of the Bucks/Lehigh County Line) from Coopersburg towards Bethlehem.

The route goes through some fully residential areas from Coopersburg and Centre Valley into Bethlehem.
Any time a line such as this goes through a residential area NIMBY opposition is a distinct possibility to
resurrect a rail route that has been gone for a length of time - 40 years in this case - back to service.

3 - Wawa to West Chester's problem is going to be how much money will this 10 mile restoration cost?
Will Chester County be willing to fund and be involved further in this commitment?

4 - **Norfolk Southern** and their willing to work with the government entities funding new Norristown-
Pottstown-Reading rail service will be the determining factor for this new service to become a reality.

5 - The Wall Street and Crusader runs to Newark were an interesting partnership that was inherited from
the Reading and CNJ by Conrail (April 1, 1976) that was sponsored by both SEPTA and NJDOT (beginning
in the 1970s) - SEPTA/RDG provided the RDC equipment - NJDOT funded the route between WTR and NWK.

All of what now is NJT Rail and SEPTA RRD was operated by Conrail under contract from April 1, 1976 until
December 31, 1982 for the record before full direct takeover by NJT and SEPTA.

After through Wall Street and Crusader train service ended a single weekday peak hour train ran between
West Trenton and Newark - north AM and south PM - connecting at West Trenton with a local train south
to/from Jenkintown and Reading Terminal. This service option ran for around 18 months - the forced WTR
transfer, slower service and lack of train options (two to one train between WTR and Bound Brook) were
all reasons that this revised service was not successful (Summer 1981 into 1982 was the time frame) then.

Bringing back passenger service between West Trenton and Bound Brook would be an NJT decision.
SEPTA would only be involved if through service south of WTR to Jenkintown and Philadelphia is operated.
There is past discussion about the NJDOT/NJT Bound Brook-West Trenton service in the Railroad.net NJT Forum
archives for the record about this subject.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is good to know that younger people are open to options such as rail as opposed to driving.
Getting PennDot more involved in passenger rail is going to take a major change in their entire mindset.
They are committed to highways over any other form of transport - I do not think that will change...
MACTRAXX
  by PHLSpecial
 
After watching this video Philadelphia's Regional Rail Network Evolution
I did not know we lost so many stations inside the city. Part of the imagination regional rail they talked about how much we riders they are missing from inside the city limits.
What should be done so that we can have more riders inside the city limits?

One thing I would say is make every RR fare inside the city limits $2. Yes that would expense but you would make it up with capacity.
  by MACTRAXX
 
PHL - I watched the video and noticed that VU got most of the line changes correct.
There were errors (NewARK, DE instead of New-WORK, NJ) and omissions - the **Railworks** reconstruction
of the former Reading trunk 9th Street Branch between Wayne Junction and the vicinity of Spring Garden
Street (6 months April to September 1992 and four months May to August 1993) with Lansdale-Doylestown,
Warminster and West Trenton lines terminating at the then-newly opened Fern Rock Transortation Center
(The Chestnut Hill East, Fox Chase and Norristown Lines were shut down during the construction period)
connecting directly with the Broad Street Subway southbound - a transfer option that remains today.

In fairness the stations that have been closed around the Regional Rail system have been low ridership
stations that were closed for a variety of reasons - in most cases alternate stations or transportation is
available within a reasonable distance to serve riders.
________________________________________________________________________________________

I read through the Rebuilding Regional Rail plan - and from what I see much of it is another transitization
effort similar to what was mentioned in the 2045 City of Philadelphia Transit Plan.

I was dismayed to see that the "race card" is being used in this plan mentioning the needs of City riders
as compared to the traditional weekday commuter working in Center City primarily using rail service to
travel to and from a "bedroom" community or neighborhood around the Philadelphia region.

There needs to be a delicate - and distinct - balance between the needs of weekday "9 to 5" commuters
and transit-dependent primarily City residents using RRD to travel to jobs (mostly) outside Philadelphia.
There should NOT be a DIVISIVE "Us Vs. Them" used to favor one group of riders over another - EVER.

The City already has Zone 1 pass valid on Regional Rail during weekday off-peak hours to all City stations.
With the next fare adjustment or increase I would create *City Zone One* and eliminate the Transpass -
since they already are close in price - and include peak hour Regional Rail service as an added benefit.

An off-peak flat Zone One fare can be an option for a single cash ride on RRD from City stations.
This can be similar to the NY MTA City Ticket - valid for a single one way fare on LIRR and MNCR trains
primarily from Queens and Bronx Borough stations respectively into Penn Station and Grand Central
Terminal - provided that an agreement to fund this fare option between SEPTA and the City is made.

In closing there needs to be an initial effort by SEPTA to preserve the RRD system as it now stands.
One of the most interesting factors I noticed was the pronounced ridership loss over the last two years
since "The Problem" began - this needs to be dealt with directly to keep the RRD system stable - and
before any talk of expansion begins - building ridership back should be SEPTA's #1 priority forward.
MACTRAXX
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