"Patriot Corridor"

cpf354 wrote:The one thing we can all know for sure is that NS does have trackage/haulage rights on the Pan Am Freight Main as far east as Waterville. They haven't actually exercised them that I'm aware of. The Patriot Corridor rumours may be connected to NS actually using those rights as they do now on the D&H. Since I don't know for sure, my guess would be that they would simply occupy Pan Am, rather than buy it.
As for these persistent rumours, we either have to take someone else's word for it, or speculate on our own what the most likely scenario is based on known facts.

It would be nice to know exactly which portions are trackage rights and which portions are haulage rights, as they are two different types of rights....

I believe that NS has trackage rights on the D&H to somewhere in the Albany area, at which points trains are taken over by GRS/PANAM crews. So it would be trackage rights on the D&H and then haulage rights all the way to Waterville, ME. To the best of my knowledge, they don't exercise haulage rights any farther than Ayer, Mass. If I am incorrect, please correct me.

Brooks Parker

This is directed to everyone, and to no one person in particular:

Keep it civil. No name calling. I've kept this thread open; please don't make me regret that. If you want to share hearsay that you heard from someone who heard it from someone else who claims to have a reliable source, go to the Yahoo groups or start your own Pan Am Rumors forum.

-Your Moderator

I know Pablo, I know Amtrak700. Too bad the both of you don't know each other, you two could share a lot of valuable info. I dont believe pablo was singling out any one person, so let's move on.

Anyway... back to your regularly scheduled mayhem.

Dave, I see your point, whether you were refering to me or others, that is in the past now, all the posts I have put on this site have been 100% fact, I hate rumors as much as you & everybody elce, yes they are a waste and benefit nobody. I usually dont even post anything on the GRS post, I just stumbled across this, and after seeing all the GRS/PAR/NS plans & letters w/ my own eyes, and hearing a anouncement is coming very soon, I just threw it out there. Sorry if 100 other people put up the same thing, maybe I should have read all 7 pages of this post. Regardless, I apologize if I was a bit harsh Dave. Anyway, I guess we will see what happens in the up coming weeks ahead. Until then...peace Dave

C'mon, lighten up.

bwparker1 wrote: To the best of my knowledge, they don't exercise haulage rights any farther than Ayer, Mass. If I am incorrect, please correct me.

Brooks Parker

They go as far as Bow NH with the coal train for PSNH.

Amtrak700 wrote:and after seeing all the GRS/PAR/NS plans & letters w/ my own eyes, and hearing a announcement is coming very soon, I just threw it out there.

There is an easy way to fix this, just post the letters!

NV290 wrote:

bwparker1 wrote: To the best of my knowledge, they don't exercise haulage rights any farther than Ayer, Mass. If I am incorrect, please correct me.

Brooks Parker

They go as far as Bow NH with the coal train for PSNH.

Ummmm thats just keeping the power on the train, nothing to do with NS haulage rights.

i thought the smackoff was last week.

btw, joe in the oc was robbed of winning his 1st.

*gasp* - it's may one and nothing's been announced! How long before the next rumor cycle?

Ian MacMillan wrote:

NV290 wrote:

bwparker1 wrote: To the best of my knowledge, they don't exercise haulage rights any farther than Ayer, Mass. If I am incorrect, please correct me.

Brooks Parker

They go as far as Bow NH with the coal train for PSNH.

Ummmm thats just keeping the power on the train, nothing to do with NS haulage rights.

Actually, no. The NHB coal trains are 100% NS trains. Guilford is paid to haul them, nothing more. Guilford is paid by NS after they get paid from PSNH.

The NHB trains originate (Usually) at Bailey Mine in PA and use 100% NS power and NS cars. Guilford is simply the delivery service.

bwparker1 wrote: It would be nice to know exactly which portions are trackage rights and which portions are haulage rights, as they are two different types of rights....

I believe that NS has trackage rights on the D&H to somewhere in the Albany area, at which points trains are taken over by GRS/PANAM crews. So it would be trackage rights on the D&H and then haulage rights all the way to Waterville, ME. To the best of my knowledge, they don't exercise haulage rights any farther than Ayer, Mass. If I am incorrect, please correct me.

Brooks Parker

Cannot say for certain where the trackage rights for NS are on the D&H, although i know NS crews take the train who's setoff becomes MOAY across the D&H through Mechanicville. But as for Guilford trackage rights, NS has none. NS has strictly Haulage rights from Mechanicville to Waterville. As of now, NS crews cannot run trains on Guilford property past (i have been told) Ferry Street just past the Hudson River Bridge. Just as CSX crews can come onto Guilford property a short distance up to Burncoat st* (*Excluding Auto Rack trains)

NV290 wrote:

bwparker1 wrote: It would be nice to know exactly which portions are trackage rights and which portions are haulage rights, as they are two different types of rights....

I believe that NS has trackage rights on the D&H to somewhere in the Albany area, at which points trains are taken over by GRS/PANAM crews. So it would be trackage rights on the D&H and then haulage rights all the way to Waterville, ME. To the best of my knowledge, they don't exercise haulage rights any farther than Ayer, Mass. If I am incorrect, please correct me.

Brooks Parker

Cannot say for certain where the trackage rights for NS are on the D&H, although i know NS crews take the train who's setoff becomes MOAY across the D&H through Mechanicville. But as for Guilford trackage rights, NS has none. NS has strictly Haulage rights from Mechanicville to Waterville. As of now, NS crews cannot run trains on Guilford property past (i have been told) Ferry Street just past the Hudson River Bridge. Just as CSX crews can come onto Guilford property a short distance up to Burncoat st* (*Excluding Auto Rack trains)

No more racks up to Ayer anymore, so no more CSX crews-however if they're qualified they could, I would think.
The reason for the eastbound Burncoat St tie down/re-crew location is to clear the train off the P&W. The westbound change point is still New Bond Street for the obvious reason that the train remains on Pan Am property.
The NS rights, whatever they are, probably apply to intermodal only. They marketed the ramp service up at Waterville just as they do now at Ayer. In fact there's a decent possibility that a good number of the boxes getting loaded or unloaded at Ayer come from or go to Maine.

There may be some confusion as to what defines trackage and haulage rights... below, I've paraphrased an earlier posting I made on this in '04:

Railroads cannot arbitrarily have crews "running through" on foreign lines. In order to do so, the two companies need to first establish trackage rights. In this case, PAR would have to grant NS the right to use their power and crews to effect freight movements over their line east from Mech'ville. In exchange for this right, the host railroad (PAR) would be paid a fee, usually in cents per car-mile. NS would assume car-hire costs for that portion. Trackage rights are usually in effect in perpetuity, and can only be cancelled by mutual consent. In other words, once PAR approves it, they're stuck with it unless NS also wants out. Rights can be limited to discrete traffic, such as particular coal movements. Keep in mind the fact that NS would have to establish a crew pool that is qualified on PAR, absorb taxi costs for NS to their home terminals, etc...

An alternative to trackage rights is haulage rights. In that case, the host railroad will move freight that is "in the commercial account" of another railroad for a preset fee (many rates are contracted and set individually based on competitive issues). Say MMA decided to establish haulage rights on GRS between No Me Jct and Mechanicville, and PAR agreed. GRS would move MMA's traffic on GRS trains with GRS power and crews. GRS would charge on a per car basis, say, $1,000, regardless of commodity, origin or destination. The cars would never be taken into their account, that is MMA would be responsible for car-hire and PAR would not be privy to what is in those cars (with the exception of hazardous materials) or how much MMA is making on the line-haul. A car shipped from Millinocket would be routed MMA-mechanicville-CPRS.

There are a host of variations to these rights, all negotiated to maximize operating efficiency and protect the commercial interest of both parties.

That said, I highly doubt PAR has granted either right to NS for coal movements to Bow. They've traditionally made a killing on pre-existing linehaul rates over Michy/Rott Jct interchanges.

What I can say with certainty: The presence of trackage or haulage rights can't be determined by who's locomotives or cars are in the consist.

Just for historical reference, the Bow coal trains have been around for a very long time; at least 40 years or more. Although power has run through for most of that time, none of the predecessor roads ever had any kinds of rights over the B&M that I heard of.